Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[metmom]

And you can murder someone if you "are not under the law" and still stand before God and get your rewards.

Says a member of a religion that honors the likes of Ted Kennedy and Hugo Chavez with Catholic funerals.

A “church” that refuses to exercise church discipline for abortion and homosexual supporting politicians.

A “church” that allows known homosexual pedophile priests to administer its rites and ordinances and protects said sexual offenders by moving them around from parish to parish.

And then Catholics have the chutzpah to point fingers of condemnation at others for not taking sin seriously?

Such rank hypocrisy.

And again, a perfect example of projection.

[Elsie]

I am not going to be distracted about the text that you chose to put in quotes: ...is to be...

I posted every English translation I could find and those words were not found.

Let's deal with the issue at hand before we wander off into another area.

[Elsie]

 What does PAul write in 1 Thess 4:13-18?

Well; let's see:

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-18   (KJV)

¹³ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

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  Now let's see what you typed here:

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 The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven ... those who have died in Christ GOD will bring with Him as He descends from Heaven with a shout.

If GOD is bringing the dead in Christ WITH Jesus, where are those spirits coming from?

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 We read 3 times that folks are ASLEEP.   Can we agree this means DEAD?

For the next verse - 16 - talks about the dead in Christ.

 

And it speaks of them RISING; too.

 

So, getting to your last conditional sentence containing a question at the end: "...where are those spirits coming from?"  Indeed; WHERE are they?

 

Are they SLEEPING in their graves, as the Scriptures indicate, or are they awake and alive somewhere in heaven right now with Jesus?

 

Shall they RISE from their graves or DESCEND from heaven?

[Elsie]

So you see TWO locations of the dead in Christ!

No, I don't.

You and Mr. Young might, but it escapes me.

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Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

[Elsie]

777 ought to be worth something

[Elsie]

Since you endorsed it, I had to go listen.

I recognized the tune but the words, in these old ears, were too blurry for me.

However, the title gave me plenty of information.

Nice little break from of fussin’ with each other.

[Philsworld]

https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=what+really+happens+when+you+die+aloha&d=4940844788025047&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=FWKVQPOl0DjG1jl7MZSck-Vd1hbrI5iu

THE SLEEP OF DEATH

Now notice how Jesus himself describes death-

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luke 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

In Jesus own words above, death is described to be like a sleep.

Job 14:10 NIV But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
Job 14:11 As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
Job 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.

Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

[Philsworld]

THE SOUL - THE BREATH OF LIFE

But, what of the soul? Just what is it?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A soul, as shown by this verse, has the spark / breath of life, given by God.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(The word breath in verse 29 and spirit in verse 30 is H7307 ruwach)

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (H7307 ruwach / breath) shall return unto God who gave it.

When God breathed life into Adam, he became a living soul (creature). Note that Gen. 2:7 does not say God put a soul into Adam. You are a soul because God has breathed life into you.

Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

1 Ki 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

1 Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
1 Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

In the above incident with Elijah, the return of the child’s soul and breath are identical in meaning. You do not have a ghost-like immortal soul that survives your physical death. Life is what makes you a soul. Without life you perish.

EVERY SOUL IN THE SEA

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea.

Notice that even the inhabitants of the sea are referred to as living souls, just like Adam. This is because the soul is only the spark of life, which is given by God alone. It is not a ghost living inside you.

THE RICH MAN WHO LOST HIS SOUL

Note the story of the rich man who thought he was set for a life of leisure because his barns were full:

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

The rich man’s soul did not move to heaven that night, rather he lost his life. He lost his soul and perished. He ceased to live, and his goods then became the property of someone else. All of his planning was worthless.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mark 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The above two passages make plain that the words soul and life are interchangeable. When you die, you lose your soul, which is to say you lose your life. The wicked man who rules the world, but loses his soul, does not take up residence next in hell for eternity. Rather he perishes, he loses his life, he ceases to exist. The implication being that he has foolishly traded away his eternal life for earthly wealth.

[wita]

I tell ampu a truth, and you give me back three out right lies you seemingly believe.

Obviously, based on your response, you are not interested in the truth.

1. Your answer is so obviously ridiculous that I am lead by your comment to believe things about ampu that are probably not true, but then how am I to know based on the response.

2. The false Jesus narrative takes me right back to number one. Jesus suffered in Gethsemani was crucified and died on the cross for your sins and mine. Anything else, I would suggest, has no bearing on his atonement for our salvation.

3. See number one. Also see Articles of Faith, number one. If you need help finding it let me know. I’ll assure you Elsie knows how to find it or has it in his voluminous archive.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ The false Jesus narrative takes me right back to number one. Jesus suffered in Gethsemani was crucified and died on the cross for your sins and mine. Anything else, I would suggest, has no bearing on his atonement for our salvation.”

Well, mormonic Jesus was created and had a beginning. As such, He was not God. A created being who was not God could not die for anyone else’s sins.

You got played into believing a lie.

And you must certainly know that mormonism has countless gods - at least four on earth.

And since Scripture makes it clear there is only one God, you got played into buying that heresy.

[Mark17]

Good one bro. A good take off of Mr Sandman. 😀

[wita]

“shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Your dogmatic interpretation of those words does not make the messengers liars, and most certainly places no limitations on Christ appearing when where and to whom he will. Those quoted words will still be fulfilled as stated by the messengers.

[wita]

I imagine that the confusion that exists in the various sects of MormonISM is enough to keep you busy.

Your imagination runneth away.

[Mark17]

Even when I as an unsaved Catholic, I thought Mormonism was hogwash. I still do. 👍 I have to admit, however, as much as I think Mormon doctrine is totally false, individual Mormons are some of the nicest people I have ever met.

[wita]

Based on law, I would assume the incorporation was a legal necessity to protect the Church and it’s officers from liability or debt issues. The Constitution was not much help in past history was it.

I didn’t see any questions asked in the post, nor were any necessary IMHO. That would be way above my paygrade.

[Elsie]

Also see Articles of Faith, number one.

Well, here ya go, but the things left OUT of the AoF might shed a bit more light on what TCoJCoLDS teaches.

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The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,

in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.

 

They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.

They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

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http://wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?creed 

 

One entry found for creed.Main Entry: creed 
Pronunciation: krd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English crede "creed," from Old English crda (same meaning), from Latin credo, literally, "I believe" (used as the first words in many creeds), from credere "to believe, trust, entrust" --related to CREDENTIALS, CREDIT, INCREDIBLE
1 : a statement of the basic beliefs of a religious faith
2 : a set of guiding principles or beliefs

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

[Elsie]

I tell ampu a truth, and you give me back three out right lies you seemingly believe.

 

These three?

 

1. Not Bible believing - except for what the leadership tells them
2. Not Christians, since they have a false Jesus that was created.
3. Not Christians since they believe in countless gods and at least 4 earth gods.

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#1  Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is tested;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

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#2
The Doctrine and Covenants, one of the four sacred books of Mormonism states, “Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father.”{1}

The Gospel Principles, which is the manual of the Mormon Church, states, “The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ.”{2}

James Talmage, one of the early apostles of the church wrote, “[A]mong the spirit-children of Elohim, the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors.”{3}

 

1. Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23.
2. Gospel Principles, 11.
3. James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 425.

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#3
Doctrine and Covenants:

According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest. (Section 121:32)

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Section 132:18-20)

Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. (Section 132:37)

[Elsie]

Dogmatic?

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dogmatic

dôg-măt′ĭk, dŏg-

adjective

1. Relating to, characteristic of, or resulting from dogma.
2. Asserting or insisting upon ideas or principles, especially when unproven or unexamined, in an imperious or arrogant manner.
3. Characterized by such assertion, often with an unconsidered rejection of criticism.

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dogma

dôg′mə, dŏg′-

noun

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a religion.
2. A principle or statement of ideas, or a group of such principles or statements, especially when considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically.
3. A settled opinion; a principle, maxim, or tenet held as being firmly established.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

--> Your dogmatic interpretation of those words does not make the messengers liars, and most certainly places no limitations on Christ appearing when where and to whom he will. Those quoted words will still be fulfilled as stated by the messengers.

And this is the mormonic deception method...

Get people off the inspired Scriptural truth and onto the "it could've happened that way" muddy ground.

And it is worth noting that the foundation of mormonism is the fraudulent Joseph Smith. If you are unaware of how deceitful he was, I'm happy to post court transcripts.