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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
it shows...
It's too bad so many have been so poorly catechized.
422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'1 This is 'the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God':'2 God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own 'beloved Son'.3
423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He 'came from God',4 'descended from heaven',5 and 'came in the flesh'.6 For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.'7
424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9
"To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"10
425 The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily in proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him. From the beginning, the first disciples burned with the desire to proclaim Christ: "We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."'11 It And they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ:
At the heart of catechesis: Christ
426 "At the heart of catechesis we find, in essence, a Person, the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father. . .who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever."13 To catechize is "to reveal in the Person of Christ the whole of God's eternal design reaching fulfillment in that Person. It is to seek to understand the meaning of Christ's actions and words and of the signs worked by him."'14 Catechesis aims at putting "people . . . in communion . . . with Jesus Christ: only he can lead us to the love of the Father in the Spirit and make us share in the life of the Holy Trinity."15
427 In catechesis "Christ, the Incarnate Word and Son of God,. . . is taught - everything else is taught with reference to him - and it is Christ alone who teaches - anyone else teaches to the extent that he is Christ's spokesman, enabling Christ to teach with his lips. . . Every catechist should be able to apply to himself the mysterious words of Jesus: 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.'"16
428 Whoever is called "to teach Christ" must first seek "the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus"; he must suffer "the loss of all things. . ." in order to "gain Christ and be found in him", and "to know him and the power of his resurrection, and [to] share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible [he] may attain the resurrection from the dead".17
429 From this loving knowledge of Christ springs the desire to proclaim him, to "evangelize", and to lead others to the "yes" of faith in Jesus Christ. But at the same time the need to know this faith better makes itself felt. To this end, following the order of the Creed, Jesus' principal titles - "Christ", "Son of God", and "Lord" (article 2) - will be presented. The Creed next confesses the chief mysteries of his life - those of his Incarnation (article 3), Paschal mystery (articles 4 and 5) and glorification (articles 6 and 7).
And we'd be fools if we didn't read the bible.
Who needs skewed translations when you can 'teach' from most any of them and convince most of your students that you are an oracle of GOD!
And that is WITHOUT needing 'apparitions' to augment the lessons with extra TRUTH! from above.
I would have to agree.
I KNEW I was never going to be able to be good enough to get to heaven and all the religious trappings and theology of Catholicism were boring beyond words.
I just could not imagine forcing myself into a life of a convent.
Purgatory was the best I could hope for and I doubted that I’d even make that.
The God presented by Catholicism was harsh, demanding, impatient, and capricious, ready to zap you for any slip up no matter how small if you didn’t toe the perfectionist line.
What a lop sided image of God to present to someone. All justice and no mercy. Unless, of course, you groveled and begged for it, then MAYBE you might get it.
He is nothing at all like the loving, gracious, merciful Father that Jesus presented to us.
Ouch….
you said it
.
Baptism is the outward expression of the believer’s identification with the object of his or her faith (cf. Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27).
Consequently Paul could say the Israelites were baptized into Moses even though they did not undergo literal water baptism in the name of Moses. By following him and submitting to his authority they expressed their identification with him. The parallel with water baptism was most vivid when they went under the cloud and crossed the Red Sea. These experiences constituted a dry baptism for the Israelites. (TC)
And fell away as well. Simply being baptized isn’t enough apparently; you need to believe what the baptism means.
It’s not solely obedience; otherwise the Pharisees would have salvation and we know they didn’t. It’s faith that brings obedience out of love, not out of pride or fear of punishment.
Do you know and would you share what you believe being ‘in Christ means to one who believes Jesus IS the Savior?
So how did they get baptized into Moses?
They certainly could not have literally put him on.
And actually, they neither entered the cloud or the sea, but passed through the sea untouched and there’s no record of anyone but Moses, and perhaps Aaron entering the cloud. The people as a whole didn’t.
And the gist of it always gets back to faith.
Even those who participated in Law keeping were not saved by that. The pharisees certainly weren’t.
So the key is the faith, not participating in the outward expressions of the faith lived out.
Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
from the catechism: 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first
place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from
the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also
because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence,
evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day
when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.
from the catechism: 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search,
among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near
since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be
saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in
these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who
enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
But the Bible says:
Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Jn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
Jn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
Jn 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jn 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Jn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Jn 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Jn 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
Jn 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Jn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Jn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jn 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
To even hint that other religions lead people to Christ as section 843 does is outright blasphemy. All other religions in the world deny this section from 1 Corinthians, something all believers in the Bible call the Gospel:
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cor 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cor 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cor 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cor 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Cor 15:11 Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
1Cor 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cor 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Some murmur at the "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." ALL men (and women) refers to ALL, not just those who are The Body of Christ, because even the lost sinner who dies rejecting the Spiritual Life Jesus offers as His Grace will be made alive to stand at the Great White Throne of Judgment.
All sins are past. They are not future. Even in the present, when an act of sinning is underway, any part that has been completed is past. You can't be convicted of the part that is yet to come.
Apparently, you think that Jesus alone does not have enough power to save you, that you must help Him or otherwise if you do not do this very well, you'll go to Hell after you die. Otherwise purgatory, eh?
Too bad, pal!
Another point about OSAS is that when the plan was made by God in the eternal past, time did not exist, and ALL sins were future. They (the Trinity) planned on paying for all sins (Titus 1:2). When we try to envision these things from our point of view, we use the words future, present and past. To God, they are all PRESENT, and eternally so.
-— All sins are past. They are not future.
+1
This kind of confusion can perhaps result from many things in a person’s life:
being raised in a cult,
not having enough bacon,
having a woman “prophet”
- it’s a false world to live in...
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