Posted on 02/15/2022 5:49:53 AM PST by kinsman redeemer
The Diocese of Phoenix said 'all of the baptisms he has performed until June 17, 2021, are presumed invalid'
"The issue with using ‘We’ is that it is not the community that baptizes a person, rather, it is Christ, and Him alone, who presides at all of the sacraments, and so it is Christ Jesus who baptizes," Olmsted said.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Is that the Gospel of John or a handbook of obstetrics and gynecology you're talking about? John's Gospel says that it was written that you and I might have "life in [Jesus'] name," not to teach us basic medical science.
Stop being a sophist, you know well I am saying it is a public commitment to your salvation. It is not a required ritual before G-d can be allowed to give you his grace.
Why did God directly institute "ritualistic traditions" in the Old Covenant like the Passover Seder, then? Was he setting a bad example for us? Did he change his mind in the intervening 1500 years?
Thief on the cross isn’t an argument. Jesus told him directly he was going to heaven. He’s not here to physically tell us that, that is what baptism is for.
Who spoke his own words and gave life to Lazarus.
***Yes. The power was Jesus, not the words.
The word is spoken, yes?
***You’re engaging in obfuscation, yes?
Every grace comes from Jesus right?
***And now you’ve gone completely off into the weeds, right?
What point are you making?
***I posted the point I made. What point are you trying to obscure?
Catholic teaching agrees with you. God is not bound by the sacraments. However, the sacraments are the _normative_ means that he instituted to confer sanctifying grace. And since Christ, not men, instituted them, individuals are not allowed to adulterate or otherwise change them on their own whim.
Thief on the cross isn’t an argument. Jesus told him directly he was going to heaven.
***Oh, thanks for generating the argument for me. The thief on the cross went to heaven WITHOUT GETTING BAPTIZED. Baptism doesn’t save. Belief in Jesus saves.
He’s not here to physically tell us that, that is what baptism is for.
***Non sequitur.
baptism doesnt get value because what any of us think about it, its only valuable because of our obedience to do it, it is a public profession of our faith, it wasn’t some ceremony in a church when early christians got saved and then batpized often it was with onlookers who after seeing their public baptism in a river would go and persecute those converts. like the apostle paul used to do before he was saved, by the way he was saved while walking down the road had nothing to do with his baptism, like others have mentioned the thief on the cross was also saved because of his belief.
you do realize the verse you referenced is talking about actual physical birth as when the water breaks and a person is born
Yah um no. Nobody ever thought that until recently, and it makes zero grammatical sense since it’s “born again of water and the spirit” - water and the spirit is a singular thing (i.e. baptism). Not “born of water then of the spirit” or something.
Not at all, I'm pointing out that your interpretation misses a necessary portion of Jesus own teaching and instruction. Since you didn't read Jesus, who gave a commandment, I can't see how you understood Paul
***Where does it say this in the bible? Where does it even HINT at this?
Peter sais to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. Ac 2:38.
You just called G-d a liar in your post. The Bible clearly states G-d cannot lie, You clearly believe Baptism MUST happen and G-d stated as such to receive grace, ergo G-d Lied because the Thief was not baptized.
Your God can be capricious and change his nature at will, which is CLEARLY not biblical, again the bible states G-d cannot lie and is a rational G-d. G-ds laws and nature are unchanging and eternal, again biblically supported.
Your position requires your God to be none of those.
you mean the theology that thrust the world into the dark ages by chaining the bibles to the pews of the churches, so that nobody could read the scriptures.“
What are you talking about here? The fall of Rome thrust the world into the dark ages and the Church pulled it out.
we have Gods word to tell us. and Gods word is Jesus!
John 1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Seriously?
A human can’t “believe” if he can’t understand.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:47 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
thank you
The thief on the cross is also not truly applicable. He was saved under the Old Covenant, because the New Covenant wasn’t really “up and running” until Pentecost. Baptism wasn’t requirement — not even a normative requirement (versus an absolute one) — for salvation under the Old Covenant. You might as well argue that Moses or Elijah or Abraham, not receiving Christian baptism yet nevertheless being saved, are arguments against baptism.
Kevmo: Are you denying that Paul’s letters in the bible are inspired by God? Peter said they were.
Bayard: Not at all, I’m pointing out that your interpretation misses a necessary portion of Jesus own teaching and instruction.
***Then by all means, point out to everyone what this NECESSSARY portion of Jesus’s teaching and instruction is. Because it would settle once and for all the strange assertion that people have which is that baptism saves. Go ahead...
Since you didn’t read Jesus, who gave a commandment,
***Where’s the commandment? The scriptures themselves are speaking, and loudly, that it is faith ALONE which saves. Baptism is proper and dutiful but NOT necessary.
I can’t see how you understood Paul
***I think you can see it, you just prefer to obfuscate as much of it as you can.
Bayard: Baptism confers grace.
Kevmo: Where does it say this in the bible? Where does it even HINT at this?
Bayard: Peter sais to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. Ac 2:38.
***THAT’s where you claim this is hinted at? Then where did Christ command the thief on the cross to be baptized? And the Acts 19 BELIEVERS, why didn’t Paul question their BELIEF? Those people believed and were saved. The Acts19 believers got that extra-special gift after they were baptized, but they were already saved. Otherwise, Paul woulda said “Hey, you guys aren’t saved yet. Get baptized as fast as you can before one of you dies and is sent to hell for the lack of payment on your sins.”
The Bible clearly states G-d cannot lie, You clearly believe Baptism MUST happen and G-d stated as such to receive grace, ergo G-d Lied because the Thief was not baptized.
Wow, mind reading and false witness all in one post!
I never said baptism MUST happen- I only said what baptism DOES. God can do what he wishes, regardless of a person’s status as baptized or not. Baptism saves, but a lack of baptism does not condemn, Only a lack of faith. A person can come to faith before his baptism, but that doesn’t mean baptism doesn’t do what the Bible says it does.
Furthermore, all old testament saints were obviously saved without being baptized - it hadn’t been instituted yet (or even by the time of the thief on the cross).
people in the old testament were saved the same way new testament people are- by faith in christ, they looked forward to the cross, we look back.
“ my credentials do not matter, Gods word is my credentials its all that matters.”
Oy. Ok.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.