"Art thou not Sebastian whom I before commanded to be slain with arrows?" ~ A few interesting points about Saint Sebastian's ancient Passio.

Gloria Romanorum ^ | January 20, 2022 | Florentius

[Antoninus]

Could this late Roman account of the life and death of St. Sebastian include a description of an ancient computing device similar to the mysterious Antikythera Mechanism?

[Antoninus]

Catholic ping

[Red Badger]

Antikythera Mechanism PING!..................

[ebb tide]

Ping

[viewfromthefrontier]

That is a truly fascinating article in many respects. Thanks for posting.

[Antoninus]

I thought so too. Thanks!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

--> It is said that a relic of the top of Sebastian’s cranium may be seen to this day in the church of St. Sebastian in Ebersberg, Bavaria. A good summary of the remaining relics and their locations may be found in St. Sebastian's entry in Butler's Lives of the Saints.

"Little children, keep yourself from idols." -Apostle John

[Antoninus]

"Little children, keep yourself from idols." -Apostle John

You're not really claiming that the relics of the saints are "idols" are you?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

They become idols when people idolize them.

[Antoninus]

LOL. Well, I’ll not disagree with that. But what does it mean to “idolize” something? In pagan theology, the idol had power because the spirit of the demon had entered it. It became almost a living thing. No Christian that I ever heard of thought that the spirit of the deceased saint entered into the relic. If the relic had any “power” at all, it was because Almighty God chose to perform a miracle through the intercession of the saint involved. Even the very earliest Christians believed that which is why you have innumerable stories in antiquity of Christians retrieving the bodies of saints and pagans attempting to destroy the body to deny the Christians their relics.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

No accounts of believers before100 ad idolizing relics - or Mary.

Or praying to either. Or bowing before either.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Red Badger.

[Texas_Guy]

So AD 100 is your arbitrary cut off date? That’s still at least 1500 years before your denomination rebelled.

And did you ever think that records might be scarse due to the church being persecuted for the first 400 years?

[Texas_Guy]

Like how Protestants idolize their personal bibles?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> Like how Protestants idolize their personal bibles?

I am not aware of any that do - bow down before them, pray to them, etc.

BUT if they do, it is wrong.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

-->So AD 100 is your arbitrary cut off date? That’s still at least 1500 years before your denomination rebelled. The last Apostle was alive at that point. It is not arbitrary. It never appears in the Scripture that was circulated at that time. I use the Scriptures from 100 ad and before, as all believers do. I will take that as a simple acknowledgement that you have no scriptural or historical support from before 100 ad to support the practice was are discussing? -->And did you ever think that records might be scarse due to the church being persecuted for the first 400 years? Yet, Scripture survived and never records anyone praying to anyone except God - except the recorded prayers of pagans...

[Antoninus]

No accounts of believers before100 ad idolizing relics - or Mary.

LOL. So AD 100 is your arbitrary date for where Christian practice "went off the rails." OK. To believe that, you have to assume that all of the relics of the Apostles that exist to this day are frauds. Is that correct?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

... So AD 100 is your arbitrary date for where Christian practice "went off the rails."

No. It the time of the last living Apostle. If it wasn't taught by apostles or included in Scripture by Apostles, it is false.

...To believe that, you have to assume that all of the relics of the Apostles that exist to this day are frauds. Is that correct?

No. You have to assume they should not be idolized, prayed to, bowed down before, etc.

[Antoninus]

From the martyrdom account of Saint Polycarp, a disciple of St. John the Apostle, written ca. AD 150.

"The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Source: The Martyrdom of Polycarp

Man, the Apostles really did a terrible job teaching their disciples, didn't they?

[Antoninus]

You have to assume they should not be idolized, prayed to, bowed down before, etc.

Nobody does that. Asking the Saints to intercede has nothing to do with "idolizing" their relics. That's a faulty Protestant definition. Y'all miss out on a lot of graces by rejecting the intercession of the saints.