How We lost The Bible

The promotion of Biblical interpretations serving secular, liberal political agendas of sex and race is only the latest manifestation of a centuries-old trend.

The Bible makes no explicit condemnations of transgenderism. It makes no claims as to the morality of abortion. It encourages racial reparations. Such claims can be found virtually everywhere in corporate media like the Washington Post, New York Times, or CNN, which seek to promote the various political objectives of the Democratic Party.

During his campaign for president, Episcopalian Pete Buttigieg argued that Jesus never mentioned abortion and that Bible verses censuring homosexuality were culturally conditioned, not eternal truths. The Washington Post, in turn, cites secular academics, who offer Biblical exegesis of a progressivist, feminist, and racial identitarian variety.

Of course, the Bible has always been a political document. The Old Testament was not only a religious and liturgical text but one that had much to say about the governance of the ancient kingdom of Israel. Jesus told his followers to respect and pay taxes to the Roman Empire. St. Paul described the temporal ruler as “God’s servant for your good.” (Romans 13:3-4)

For most of ecclesial history, the primary interpreters of Holy Scripture were not journalists, politicians, or secular academics, but the Catholic Church herself. Most early Church Fathers were priests or bishops. Ecumenical councils like Nicea, Chalcedon, or Lyon made determinations on theology, morality, and the meaning of the Bible.

But beginning in the fourteenth century, scholars like Marsilius of Padua and William of Ockham began questioning the hierarchy’s hold on biblical interpretation. Instead, they proposed, the Bible should be under the authority of scholarly experts supported by secular political authorities. Though it would take several centuries for their ideas to proliferate, this thinking came to fruition in the Reformation and Enlightenment, and inspire trends in scriptural exegesis to this day.

This story is the focus of Scott Hahn’s and Benjamin Wiker’s book, The Decline and Fall of Sacred Scripture: How the Bible Became a Secular Book. Less than three-hundred pages, the book summarizes the central arguments of the authors’ 2012 Politicizing the Bible: The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture 1300-1700, which is more than twice the size. This is a welcome development; it makes their important contributions accessible to a larger audience.

While the story begins with Marsilius and Ockham and their Erastian belief in the supremacy of the state over the Church, the reader will encounter many familiar faces. John Wycliffe, esteemed by Protestants as the “Morning Star” of the Reformation, argued that “the pope ought, as he formerly was, to be subject to Caesar.” The monarch would then employ “doctors and worshipers of the divine law” to interpret the Bible. Martin Luther also called for the German princes to wrest ecclesial power away from corrupt bishops and the Roman pontiff, and grant him unequaled interpretive authority. Indeed, Luther asked the prince of Saxony to expel fellow reformer Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt because of the latter’s radical teachings. Around the same time, Machiavelli viewed the biblical text as material for furthering secular political ends.

All of these men influenced the court of English King Henry VIII, who recognized that the Reformation offered an opportunity to consolidate his political power. Thus, he pursued the Act of Supremacy in 1534 to grant him “supreme” headship over the Church of England, followed by the dissolution of monasteries, closure of shrines, and seizure of Church wealth. His King’s Book then declared that individuals must be subject to the “particular church” of the region in which they live, and obey the “Christian kings and princes” to whom they are subject.

Other Englishmen would further endorse this thinking. In Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes asserts that there is only “one chief Pastor” who is “according to the law of Nature. . .the civil sovereign.” Hobbes also rejected many of the supernatural elements of Scripture, as well as Heaven and Hell. John Locke, dismayed by the violence and distemper caused by the English Civil War, endorsed a state-controlled church whose most important feature would be “toleration,” since religious sentiments were private matters “of the mind.” For Locke, Jesus was ultimately a political messiah whose teachings focused on the perpetuation of a “civil morality.”

There are many other actors in this torrid tale – Baruch Spinoza, J. Richard Simon, John Toland – but enough is clear from the above to appreciate the consequences of these religio-political trends. Proto-Reformers called for dethroning the Catholic hierarchy’s supremacy over biblical interpretation. The Reformers, relying on princes and kings, put that wish into practice. And political philosophers and state-sanctioned scholars normalized it. Wherever the Catholic Church ceased to exert ecclesial authority, the state took up the reins.

There has always been this tension between Church and state. St. Ambrose excommunicated the emperor Theodosius because of his execution of 7,000 citizens of Thessalonica. Pope Gregory VII excommunicated the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV because of a dispute over investiture. And Thomas Becket’s resistance to English King Henry II’s attempts to control the Church resulted in his murder at Canterbury Cathedral.

There is actually something healthy about this tension: when the state and the Church both operate strong spheres of power and influence, they serve as checks upon one another. Kings and governments cannot pursue any policy without risking moral condemnation from ecclesial leadership that will undermine their popular support. And Church corruption and nepotism can be used by secular authorities eager to usurp power.

Hahn’s and Wiker’s history tracks the growing imbalance in favor of the state, a disparity whose roots can be traced back to the late Medieval period. The ubiquitous promotion of Biblical interpretations that serve secular, liberal political agendas related to sex and race is only the latest manifestation of this centuries-old trend. To reverse it requires a return to a more ancient understanding that the Bible is, before all else, the book of the Church, rather than the state or its acolytes in the media or the academy. Catholics need to support and celebrate churchmen who appreciate and seek to realize that essential mission.

This penalty you keep demanding, sorry to disappoint you, will never be hell for the child of God. There may be discomfort, there may be pain, there may even be physical death, but the child of God is indwelt by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Because if anything could, then it’s not by grace. What a merciful God we have!

After all of that, you have AGAIN confirmed my point. Your side says that NOTHING will keep a once saved, NONREPENTANT sinner out of heaven, no matter what UNREPENTANT sins they commit. They have a license to sin WITHOUT PENALTY. That is EXACTLY what you are saying, even if you keep denying it. BTW, why would an UNREPENTANT sinner care in the least about disassociation of Christian fellowship? They can continue to sin and they are STILL going to heaven. To them it’s a win/win. And, IT’S NOT A PENALTY. Probably a different story with a REPENTANT sinner, don’t you think?

One of the texts you quoted was 1 John 3:9. You say: “They have shown that the new SPIRIT nature is of God and it REMAINS sinless because it is of God. That is NOT correct. Your explanation would make a Christian a robot, incapable of sinning.

Doth not commit sin. That is, he does not continue to sin, or he does not habitually sin (see on v. 6; the form of the Greek verb here is the same as it is there). The apostle thus characterizes those who have been born of God. They have experienced the new birth, their natures and changed, and they resemble their heavenly Father (see on John 3:3–5; 1 John 3:1). They hate the sin they used to love, and love the virtue they used to despise (see on Rom. 6:2, 6; 7:14, 15). Such people do not continue slaves to their old sins, they do not habitually commit their old mistakes. Divine power has given them the victory over those weaknesses, and is ready to aid them in overcoming other faults of which they may not previously have been aware.

Cannot sin. Or, “is not able to go on sinning,” or “is not able to go on habitually sinning.” This does not mean that the Christian is incapable of committing a wrong act. If he were unable to sin, there would be no virtue in his being without sin, AND THERE WOULD BE NO TRUE DEVELOPMENT OF CHARACTER. John has already implied that he will make occasional mistakes (see on ch. 2:1). The passage means that, having been born of God, and having God’s life-giving power dwelling in him, he cannot continue his old pattern of habitual sin. He now follows the sinless ideals that have been implanted in his soul by the new birth. SDA bible commentary.

Either way, your explanation or mine (through the SDA bible commentary), doesn’t apply to NONREPENTANT sinners.

You say: “They showed you where Scripture says the new born again spirit in a person is sinless.” Guess what? I AGREE WITH YOU. The moment a person accepts Jesus Christ into their lives, their PAST sins are forgiven They have asked God to forgive them, because of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. AT THAT MOMENT THEY ARE SINLESS (same with the thief on the cross BTW). Future sins require REPENTANCE and forgiveness by God. The Holy Spirit is now indwelt in them and gives them power to resist sin and live the life of a Christian. It does not mean that the Christian CANNOT sin. Paul made that very clear and YOU pointed it out.... anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler, etc... Hopefully they come around and repent. But if they don’t, they are UNREPENTANT. You say THEY’RE STILL GOING TO HEAVEN.

I would also direct your attention to 1 John 3:6
6Whosoever ABIDETH in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, NEITHER KNOWN HIM.

The parallel to that text is Matthew 7:
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…

…I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!

Abiding in Christ does NOT mean once saved, always saved.

These FORMALLY SAVED people are NONREPENTANT, and will NOT be in heaven, no matter how many times you say the opposite. THEIR PENALTY IS ETERNAL DAMNATION.

Here’s John saying it in Rev 22
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Paul says EXACTLY the same thing:
“I Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-20, and Ephesians 5:5. In all three of these passages, Paul writes that those who practice the sins listed in these three passages “will not inherit the kingdom of God,” and in Ephesians 5:5, he writes, that they will not have “any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” And it should be noted that these three letters – I Corinthians, Galatians, and Ephesians – are letters written to Christian congregations, not to unsaved masses. Paul is, then, warning these Christians that if they continue to practice these sins they “will not inherit” God’s Kingdom.”

https://followingmessiah.org/2018/03/22/23-sins-that-will-keep-you-from-gods-kingdom/

We will all be judged...Romans 2:
11For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.…

Once saved, always saved, by Grace? (You should pay very close attention to verse 29...”despite unto the spirit of grace...”)
Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!

How many times does Paul admonish is with, shall we continue in sin? God forbid!

And how many times have we posted those verses only to be ignored by those who make the accusations that we teach that the believer can sin wantonly? They continue on as if those verses were never posted at all. They make Scripture to be a lie with their accusations.

They don’t want to acknowledge that Scripture condemns a sinning lifestyle by the believer because it robs their arsenal of what they think is their best argument against the security of the believer.

How many times, How many times, How many times....

How many times have I told all of you that I am talking about formally saved and now UNREPENTANT SINNERS, those who CONTINUE to sin, and then die in that UNREPENTANT, WANTON, SIN??? Is that NOT clear to you?

How many times have I put the word, unrepentant, in capitals, to highlight and make clear that I am talking about the formally saved, UNREPENTANT sinners??? Let me do it a few more times for all of you.

FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS
FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS
FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS
FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS
FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS
FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS
FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS

Here’s some more just for MHGinTN, because he doesn’t seem go get it either...

Could I be any more clear that I am talking about FORMALLY SAVED AND NOW UNREPENTANT SINNERS, those that you all say are STILL going to heaven (once saved, always saved, right???)

You wrote...try to follow this simple logic.

Pardon me for butting in, but two passages come to mind - based on your position.

The first concerns wisdom and the contrast between what a man thinks makes sense and what God thinks.

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? ... but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 1:20,23-25,2:14-16

Pardon me, still, but the second passage deals with our works contrasted with God's grace.

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Galatians 3:1,21-26

I left out a lot of valuable verses... very valuable... I didn't want to lose your attention. Please read and understand.

Bonus verse (that just came to mind and is apropos):

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You also might want to look through Romans 7 - just to see what is said about the sins of an evidently saved man.

Your doubt of eternal security is evident but God's own words should have already laid that concern to rest.

It really comes down to this: Do you trust the whole counsel of God or are you depending on individual bits, taken without context and the traditions handed down by your fathers?

Thank you for your attention.

I would like to know what God does to you and/or what happens when you sin.

I would say that my relationship with God suffers at that moment. I committed a sin and I feel guilt (I transgressed His law). So, as a REPENTANT Christian, I confess my sin and ask God for forgiveness and the power to resist evil (sin) and live a sinless life in harmony with God’s plan. That sin, and every other throughout my life, is recorded. But, I have asked forgiveness and am REPENTANT. At the JUDGMENT, I have an advocate/intercessor/mediator in Jesus Christ. And, it is my prayer that I will be counted worthy to enter heaven and that my sins will be covered by Christ’s blood.

1 John 2:
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I like this:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Advocate.html

But Jesus stands as the Advocate between our repentant hearts and the law. If His blood has been applied to our lives through faith and confession of Him as Lord (Romans 10:9–10; 2 Corinthians 5:21), He pleads our case with the Righteous Judge. We may imagine the conversation going something like this: “Father, I know this one has sinned and violated our commands. He is guilty as charged. However, you have said that my sacrifice is sufficient payment for the debt he owes. My righteousness was applied to his account when he trusted in me for salvation and forgiveness. I have paid the price, so he can be pronounced ‘Not guilty.’ There is no debt left for him to pay” (Romans 8:1; Colossians 2:14).

Jesus is our Advocate when God first accepts us into His family as His children (John 1:12). And He remains our Advocate forever. First John 1:9 says that, when we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from it. As His followers, we will still sin. But, when we do, we are commanded to confess that sin to God. Confession is an agreement with God about how bad sin is. We stand guilty before Him with no argument and no justification of our own. Our Advocate steps before the Judge, and together they agree that, because we are “in Christ,” no further punishment is necessary. Jesus has already made sufficient payment to redeem us.

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