Posted on 07/14/2021 5:25:10 AM PDT by Cronos
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church believe in the Rapture?
Eastern Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics and some mainline Protestants view the Rapture as heretical teaching of the Christian faith. It was not preached or believed prior to 1830 A.D. when John Nelson Darby individually proclaimed that his teaching is what the Bible says Christ will do when he comes again. Jesus, Paul, Peter, John or any of the writers of the Bible or Christian church fathers did not preach about the Rapture.
The Rapture teaches the four comings of Jesus — first, his birth in Bethlehem; second, his secret coming to snatch away (Rapture) the select few; third, his thousand-year reign; and fourth, the final judgment at the end of time. In the Bible, there are only two, not four, comings of Christ.
Passages of Scripture that allude to the event of the Rapture are in actuality referring to the second coming or final judgment of Christ. He will return a second time to judge the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.
The Rapture teaches that select born-again Christians will float into the clouds — no matter where they are or what they are doing — to meet the Lord in the clouds.
If they are driving, their passengers may die. If they are a pilot flying a plane, their passengers may most likely die in a plane crash. If they are a surgeon in the middle of surgery, the patient probably might die. If they are parents with young children and babies, who will take care of the abandoned children?
A better explanation of this heretical teaching can be viewed below
Well there are lots of interesting questions. like the SAmaritan Torah — they have the Pentateuch and reject the Prophets writing as later additions. Or the Sadducees took the Torah and the Prophets but rejected the Talmud as later additions
The Orthodox and Catholic would know a lot more about that than you, FReind
the problem, Celtic Conservative, is that aMpu’s “denomination” has a membership of 1.
The rest are, in AmPu’s denominations’ opinion... wrong
There are two parallel prophecies in Revelation. The first ends with the seventh trumpet. The mystery should be finished (Revelation 10:7) and “thou must prophesy again (Rev. 10:11). The testimony of two is true.
Ping to 64
😂
Yeah not.
I'm not sure I see this. Remember, there are three woes. The first woe ends with the 5th trumpet Rev 9:12. The second woe ends with Rev 11:14. The two verses you cited are encompassed within the second woe. Where is the parallelism?
I was stuck where you are for a long time. The seventh trumpet seem to finish the mystery. Something to ponder, Google “Revelation 12 sign” It’s a good fit.
Can you be more specific? The first page of results for the search you recommended turns up Sept 2017 failed date setting.
Then there are those claiming seven parallels and three parallels. None of which offer up scriptural or linguistic support.
No, it didn’t have anything to do with what came before 1830.
The pre-tribulation rapture is a 19th century made up philosophy, that’s why it wasn’t thought of before - you know like the Mormons, the Jehowah’s witnesses etc., the pre-trib rapture is another fake 19th century philosophy
So you believe pre-1830 main-line Catholicism and/or Protestantism, both infamous for their severe persecution of differing views offers the correct understanding of end times eschatology?
The pre-tribulation rapture is a 19th century made up philosophy, that’s why it wasn’t thought of before - you know like the Mormons, the Jehowah’s witnesses etc., the pre-trib rapture is another fake 19th century philosophy
So you believe Revelation to be largely symbolic with all references to Israel and the Jews symbolizing the church/believers and that all Old Testament end-times prophecies about Israel must now be understood as meaning church/believers?
Rev 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.This configuration has not happened before and it may not mean anything but Israel had peace under Trump. The three and a half years ended last March and the rockets started.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.John said “and I saw” many times in Revelation but you could not see this one because of sun is too bright. You would not see the war in heaven either. (Verse 7)
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.Is this where we are now? Just saying.
No, I’ve read the books, both Biblical and historical. Mo mention of the pre tribulation rapture before the 1830s.
Revelation talks about the destruction of Jerusalem.
For those reading the book in 68 A.D., almost all of The Apocalypse would have been future, but not for us. the events surrounding 70 A.D. really do fulfill the visions of John. the symbols relate to the events of the Great Tribulation and the Jewish-Roman War.
The first three chapters of The Apocalypse give the historical setting. Immediately, St. John begins using numbers in a symbolic way. Seven is the number that symbolizes God’s perfect workings in the world. The speaker in the vision, Christ, is envisioned standing in the midst of “seven golden lampstands … and … in His right hand He held seven stars.… The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (1:12–20).
The next two chapters contain letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor, struggling to stand for God in the midst of evil. Apostasy came early and often in the Church. In fact, Jesus warned in the Olivet Discourse that false teachers would appear before the judgment of 70 A.D. These letters prove that the heresy promised in the Olivet Discourse did in fact appear before the judgment of the Sanhedrin. The rest of The Apocalypse proves that the Great Tribulation and the Temple’s destruction that Jesus predicted appeared as well. Starting from the Nicolaitians.
In Chapters 4 through 11, we encounter St. John’s vision of the scroll. All other visions recapitulate this first one. It comes in two parts: the seven seals of a scroll and the seven trumpets contained in the last seal. The saints—those who make up the Church—are mentioned eleven times in these chapters, on average almost once every chapter. These saints are on earth. If they had been “raptured” away, it would have been a very secret rapture indeed—so secret that St. John never even mentions it!
We now encounter the second specific time reference in The Apocalypse. This one will be repeated. We read that Jerusalem, “the holy city,” will be trampled for forty-two months (11:2). This is the biblical period of judgment, as is evidenced as far back as the prophet Elijah, who withheld rain from Israel for three and a half years. These forty-two months are still within the sixth trumpet. The trampling is made possible because the protective river Euphrates has dried up. The trampling will be accomplished by the locust army of “two hundred million” cavalry. This specific period is identical to the “one thousand two hundred and sixty days” during which the “two witnesses” of prophesy (11:3). We see this period when the woman flees from Satan (12:6, 14). It appears again when the beast is given “authority” over Israel for “forty-two months” (13:5). Remember Daniel? This same three and a half years appeared in Visions.
The two witnesses are the Law and the Prophets Daniel informed us that the little horn, Nero, would make war on the times and the law for three and a half years.
John specifically points out the allegorical nature of his language in this vision (11:8).So how were the events surrounding these two witnesses fulfilled? As long as the Temple stood, the Mosaic system gave voice to the Law and the Prophets. They witnessed against the paganism of both the Romans and the unfaithful Jews. This witness annoyed many Romans. The Law and the Prophets were killed by the beast when biblical Judaism was destroyed forever by the Roman army in 70 A.D.
The specific location in which these two witnesses are killed is now identified. All of these events transpire in “the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified” (11:8). This city is obviously Jerusalem. First, it is the location of Christ’s Crucifixion, and second, the term “great city” is used elsewhere in reference to Jerusalem. Josephus uses the term as well (WJ, VII, 8:7).
Still haven’t read Holly’s essay I see. Pity, you just keep spittling the same lie. Have you got some kind of vendetta against John Darby? Read Holly Deyo’s excellent essay and stop making a fool of yourself.
THERE ARE NONE MORE BLIND THAN THOSE WHO REFUSE TO SEE
I see this discussion runs deeper than the rapture so, let's move the rapture to a back burner. we can come back to it later.
Revelation talks about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Among other things such as churches up in Anatolia but ok.
For those reading the book in 68 A.D.,
What year, or range of years do you believe Revelation was written in?
almost all of The Apocalypse would have been future, but not for us. the events surrounding 70 A.D. really do fulfill the visions of John. the symbols relate to the events of the Great Tribulation and the Jewish-Roman War.
If as you say Revelation targets Jerusalem circa 70AD, how then do you reconcile Rev 20:1-6 in light of so many Old Testament prophecies such as:
Zech 14:4
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the southWhat geologic or historic record exists supporting a fulfillment of this prophecy about the Mount of Olives circa AD70?
Staying in the same chapter of Zechariah we come to:
Zech 14:8
And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.What geologic, or historic evidence is there for such rivers flowing out of Jerusalem post AD70?
Moving down in Zech 14 two more verses we have:
Zech 14:10
All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.What evidence is there for such geologic transformation in the land of Israel?
But the unfulfilled End-Times prophecies just keep on coming. In Zech 14:12-15 we're told of a plague:
v12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
v15 Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule, On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be.What historian confirms such plague struck the Roman army? Certainly not Josephus, or Tacitus both of whom were alive then.
Here's a real good one:
Zech 14:16-19
v16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
v17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
v18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
v19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.When have nations been sending delegates each year to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles? Who was on the American delegation? China seems to be getting rain, how many are on the ChiCom delegation? What about the Norks? Germany received a lot of rain during WW-2, did Hitler send a secret delegation to Jerusalem each year to observed the Feast of Tabernacles? Is that why Germany had so much rain during WW2?
The first three chapters of The Apocalypse give the historical setting. Immediately, St. John begins using numbers in a symbolic way. Seven is the number that symbolizes God’s perfect workings in the world. The speaker in the vision, Christ, is envisioned standing in the midst of “seven golden lampstands … and … in His right hand He held seven stars.… The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (1:12–20). The next two chapters contain letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor, struggling to stand for God in the midst of evil. Apostasy came early and often in the Church. In fact, Jesus warned in the Olivet Discourse that false teachers would appear before the judgment of 70 A.D. These letters prove that the heresy promised in the Olivet Discourse did in fact appear before the judgment of the Sanhedrin. The rest of The Apocalypse proves that the Great Tribulation and the Temple’s destruction that Jesus predicted appeared as well. Starting from the Nicolaitians.
I can't comment further on your comments about the first three chapters without knowing a date, or range of dates you believe Revelation to have been written in.
In Chapters 4 through 11, we encounter St. John’s vision of the scroll. All other visions recapitulate this first one. It comes in two parts: the seven seals of a scroll and the seven trumpets contained in the last seal. The saints—those who make up the Church—are mentioned eleven times in these chapters, on average almost once every chapter. These saints are on earth. If they had been “raptured” away, it would have been a very secret rapture indeed—so secret that St. John never even mentions it!
These are tribulation era saints who gave their lives due to their obedience to the Everlasting Gospel Rev 14:6-7. Tribulation saints are different from church age saints and Old Testament saints.
We now encounter the second specific time reference in The Apocalypse. This one will be repeated. We read that Jerusalem, “the holy city,” will be trampled for forty-two months (11:2). This is the biblical period of judgment, as is evidenced as far back as the prophet Elijah, who withheld rain from Israel for three and a half years. These forty-two months are still within the sixth trumpet.
The trampling is made possible because the protective river Euphrates has dried up. The trampling will be accomplished by the locust army of “two hundred million” cavalry.When did this happen? I've never heard of the Euphrates drying up and why would the Euphrates need to dry up in order for the Roman army to sack Jerusalem? The Euphrates is roughly 400 miles NE of Jerusalem. Rome is 1500 miles west of Jerusalem.
I've never read where the Roman army came down through the Caucases into Iraq, crossed the dry Euphrates and headed west to sack Jerusalem. Which historian documented this?
I can go on an on listing End-Times prophecies which do not appear to have ever been fulfilled. If as you say Revelation addresses events of AD70, how do you deal with all the Old Testament prophecies such as in Zechariah which do not appear to have been fulfilled?
7Get rid of the old leaven, that you may be a new unleavened batch, as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old bread, leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and of truth.1 Corinthians 5.
In same letter where Paul gives the first importance of the gospel.
The Passover Lamb. Christ is the Passover Lamb.
Let us keep the Feast.
That’s what Paul said.
Because Passover is the first chief importance of Paul’s first chief importance of the gospel.
I am glad you quoted the verse about food drink and meal offerings at the Father’s New Moon, Sabbath’s and Feasts.
Christ is the ultimate sacrifice and no meal, drink and meat offerings are needed anymore at His Appointments.
They were a shadow.
A rehearsal.
Passover death
Unleavened Bread burial rest
First Fruits of those who have fallen asleep (also 1 Corinthians)
Three days in the scriptures that Paul has as his first importance of the gospel.
What people do on those days is up to them.
The offerings are no longer needed.
The days will be observed in the Kingdom.
Friday,Saturday,Sunday will not..
His Kingdom come, His will be done..
Until then, things like Thors day rules.
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