Posted on 02/12/2021 3:44:08 PM PST by OneVike
I have been invited to be an advisor for a group of Koine Greek scholars who are translating a new Bible. My role is to be sure they do not lose the context of the passage as they translate from Koine Greek to English. My predicament today is the usage of two words, "faith and trust". I am currently in a debate with one of the Greek Scholars as to which word, "faith" or "trust". In order to properly understand where I am coming from, I must tell you that this Bible will be as close of a literal word for word translation as possible.
A Bible that only theologians and highly studied pastors would even care to read, let alone be able to properly understand what they are reading since it will be somewhat disjointed in it's translation. Myself? I have a basic understanding of Koine Greek, but nothing on the level Joel and Caleb have, plus they have some understanding of Hebrew, which is something I have barley scratched the surface on. I share this, because in order to help me in my quest, you must put your thinking cap on to understand what the original writer was meaning to convey. Plus you need to understand what the ancients understood as to what certain words meant as to how they used them to convey their message. So if you have a background in Koine Greek it would be most helpful to me. However, even if you have no understanding of Koine Greek, I am also interested in your opinions as to what you believe the difference is between the the modern English words, "faith and trust", since it's being translated into American English.
My current debate with the Greek Scholar comes from his attempt to supplant the word faith with the word trust. The best example I can use is Paul's letter to the Galatians. Chapter 3 to be exact. I chose this passage, because within these 29 verses, there are 15 instances where one could use either word, "trust or faith", while once in vs 9 the word could be "faithful or trustworthy". Now mind you, both words could be acceptable as far as a translation of words go. However, we are discussing letters written for theological purposes, not letters of everyday life where religious beliefs are not considered.
My personal belief is, that when you consider a theological point, there can only be one modern English word that could properly convey what the author was intending to get across as to the reason they wrote the letter. To do so, means we must have a good understanding of what words mean in the context of the subject matter. In this case the letter was written because the Galatians had began turning back to the Mosaic Law. Thus Paul is telling them they need to put their faith/trust in Christ Jesus. Well, that boils it down in a nut shell for you. So the question is which word properly conveys what Paul it telling them. "Trust, or Faith"?"
Some information on who is doing the translation. These are two very well educated scholars who have 5 years of seminary training on Koine Greek between them, plus numerous years of self study since they have graduated and been ordained. The images I posted below are the marked up pages for which I refer to from Galatians. While the Bible has quite a ways to go before it is ready to be published, they do have some of the books complete. My job has been to read their work and make my suggestions as to what I may or may not agree with as to their choices of words they used in their translation. As you know, context is everything, and to use the wrong word in the wrong context can change the whole meaning of the passage. Which is especially dicey when dealing with the inspired Word of God, as it was handed down to the authors by the Holy Spirit.
Bookmark for tomorrow. I’ve had a note in my bible for years: What is the difference in Faith & Trust?
One of many such notes.
Faith in English implies a mental attitude.
Trust in English implies that attitude put into action.
The Hebrew concept of faith is closer to the second. Hebrews 11 gives one example of the first, then proceeds to prove the first by a long list of the second. The Hebrew concept of truth is that “it happened.”
Paul was a Hebrew; I doubt he could conceive of faith not acted upon. However, I suspect this position is not very popular.
It’s not mine. It is others who invited me. So I will help, to be assured they will do it right.
I do agree the NASB is an excellent one, but these guys want theirs, so I will be assured it is right,
Good responses on this thread.
Faith holds more power.
Trust can be diluted.
Congratulations on the honor of being selected to edit a Bible translation.
This is my take...
“Trust” is based in expectation of outcome. Which comes from reasoning that says... if all things being equal, that the outcome of a previous event will most likely repeat itself, or...
That which can be reasoned by rational thought. Such as relying on the observation of behavior; or the result of a cause and its effect that would most likely produce/repeat an expected outcome. Either way... there is no unknown relied upon, only expectation upon/from the object of your trust. But indeed trust can always give way, or fail, to the unexpected influence of chance.
“Faith” is based in desire of outcome. Which comes from belief that says... there exists a metaphysical/divine influence, an unknown, that must be relied upon that will have a hand in producing a desired outcome. There is no reason by rational thought, only a desire/fulfillment from the object of your faith. It is also possible that faith can be fulfilled, or desire made real, by the unexpected influence of chance.
Thank you.
I like your interpretation. I will add it to what I have
Thank you.
I am honored by being so chosen. I give glory to God, and believe I was chosen by God so He will be assured it is a good translation
Thank you.
Very well put. I will add it to my reasoned argument for the scholars to ponder.
Wow, maybe God has led me to post this so that you can do some study and maybe add to my argument, or at least add enlightenment to the topic.
Thanks for your input.
Interesting take
Thank you. I appreciate you taking your time to answer. I like well thought out reasons. I will need them in my presentation, as I do plan on offering them both sides of the argument. as to whether Faith or Trust should be used.
Thank you for your take on it.
Thank you.
Your take aligns with mine in your thinking.
Thank you, I liked how you presented that.
Good one. I agree on the people of this nation part especially.
Not being a scholar of Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew or Chaldea, for exegetical study I most often reference Dr, Spiros Zodhiates’ The Complete Word Study Old Testament and The Complete Word Study New Testament with Greek Parallel (KJV due to integrity of the underlying Masoretic Text and Textus Receptus). I also utilize the KJV+ version in e-Sword (available for free download at e-Sword.net).
There are a number of different words translated as faith, The same applies for trust.
In the case of the passages in Galatians, the underlying Greek word they are translating as “trust” is most often the anarthrous form (used to emphasize the quality) of the noun “pistis”. This is translated as “faith” in the KJV and most Textus Receptus-based translations. A related derivation of the root word is sometimes also translated as “trust”, but not the same derivation as those for “faith” in the Galatians passages referenced.
Quoting Zodhiates: “Pistis; from peitho, to persuade. Being persuaded, faith, belief. In general, it implies such a knowledge of, assent to, and confidence in divine truths, especially those of the gospel, as produces good works...” There is much more and the meaning may vary somewhat depending on the specific passage.
Personally, I think of “faith” as “firm persuasion”.
As for “trust”, a close in context parallel would be from the passage in II Corinthians 3:4 where the Greek “pepoithesis” from “peitho” is translated as “trust” in the KJV.
Depending on the passage, “trust” could be defined as the object of confidence (e.g., our sufficiency is in God through Christ).
Hope the above helps. Exegesis reminds me how insufficient English (or even Greek) is to fully explain the Living Word.
You may also wish to reference the Literal Standard Version Bible (LSVBible.com)
Thank you. Yes, it’s like two sides of the same coin. Similar, but still two distinct sides.
You did well for your own admittance of lacking in training.
I am a firm believer that many times the least of those trained can answer the most honest and come closest to the truth, since you put your faith in God to give you the right answer.
Thank you.
I read what they had yesterday. Thanks though, and yes it was a good read.
The language can be clunky but I just love the use of small caps when the NT quotes the OT and the use of italics for inserted words. Further, the translation notes are top notch.
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