Really? To substantiate that PTCBIH (prayer to created beings in Heaven) is Scriptural, one needs to, from the Bible (and basically in order of importance)
1 | Provide just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where anyone besides heathen (Jer. 44:19) prayed to or addressed anyone else in heaven but the Lord.* | Example, descriptions, instructions. See Bible prayers here Gen. 15:2; 17:18; 18:23; 18:23-32; 24:12-14; 32:9-12; Ex. 25:22; 32:11-13; 33:12-19; Num. 6:23-26; 10:35-36; 11:11-16; 12:13-14; 14:13-19; 27:15-18; Dt. 3:23-25; 9:25; 9:26-29; 21:7-9; 26:5-10; Josh. 7:7-9; Jdg 6:13; 6:15; 6:15-17; 6:36-37; 6:39; 13:8; 16:8; 1Ki. 3:5-61; 17:20-21; 18:25-26; 18:27-37; 19:4; 2Chr. 6:40; 14:11; 20:6-12; 30:18-19; Neh. 1:4,5; 1:4-11; 4:4-5; 9:5-38; Ps. 4:1; 5:3; 6:9; 17:1; 35:13; 39:12; 42:8; 54:2; 55:1; 61:1; 64:1; 65:2; 66:19,20; 69:13; 72:15; 80:4; 84:8; 86:1,6; 86:6; 88:2,13; 90:1; 102:1,17; 109:4,7; 141:2,5; 142:1; 143:1; Prov. 15:8,29; 28:8; Mat. 6:9-13; 11:25-27; 17:21; 21:22; 26:39; Lk. 1:9,13; 6:12; 18:10-13; 19:46; 23:30; 23:34; 23:46; Jn.11:41-42; 17:1-22; 17:1-26; Acts 1:14,24-25; 3:1; 6:4; 9:6; 10:2,31; 12:5; 16:13,16; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; 13:20-21; Rev. 6:16-16; 22:2022:20 |
2 | Provide one place where exhortations, commands or instruction or descriptions on prayer directed believers to pray to departed saints or angels. ("i.e. "After this manner pray, Our mother, who art in heaven...").. | |
3 | Show where any insufficiency exists in Christ regarding immediacy, ability, or compassion that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit. (Ex. 25:22; Eph. 2:18; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; etc.) | |
4 | Show where believers in Christ do not have direct access to God in heaven, that having “boldness to enter into the holiest” (Heb. 10:19) means one may choose to meet a type of secretary rather than in Christ directly having access by one Spirit unto the Father.** (Eph. 2:18) | |
5 | Show where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them. | |
6 | Show where the departed are given the Divine attribute of omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer. (Ps. 65:2; 139:4; Prov. 15:3) | |
7 | Provide where any communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, either by men being caught up to heaven or by angels coming to earth. (Jdg. 13; Mk. 9:2-9; Rev. 4:1ff;) | |
8 | Show where anyone else is called "Queen of heaven" other than Jer 44:17 (“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven”), who was a heavenly object of devotion and prayer. | |
9 | If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that. | |
10 | Show where another basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and is contrary to any actual need.*** | |
"O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come." (Psalms 65:2) "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. {15} For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. {16} Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, {20} By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; {21} And having an high priest over the house of God; {22} Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:19-22) "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. " (Galatians 4:6) | ||
*That is, the Father and the Son. It is clear that souls did call upon Jesus in prayer, (Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 1:2; 2Cor. 12:8; Rm. 10:13) as only He is the mediator between God and man, (1Tim. 2:5) that being uniquely His honor and ability, and is Lord of all, (Acts 10:36) and to pray to the Lord Jesus is to pray to the Father, as through Christ (by His blood) we have access by His Spirit to the Father. (Eph. 2:18) Praying to the Holy Spirit is not recorded, as it is He who effects prayer, and cries to the Father, (Gal. 4:6) not a “mother.” The Spirit can impress upon others to pray, but only Divinity is the direct object of spiritual intercession. **Some try to use Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4 to support praying to the departed, but this does not signify angelic intercession on behalf of saints awaiting to be hear by God, but in the first instance refers to prayers as a pleasing sacrifice, which Christ Himself was, “as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.” (Eph. 5:2) In the second, incense is offered with their prayers as a memorial sense, and which testifies to the wickedness of the earth, and which prayers affirms its judgment which the text goes on to describe. (cf. Rev. 6:10) ***It is argued that PTCBIH is not forbidden, yet necromancy is. And while there is no express command against consensual cannibalism (whoever dies first we will have for dinner), its basic prohibition is justly derived from Gn. 9:3,5,6 which establishes the source of man's food. Yet is it true that in keeping with the foundational law of love, in dire circumstance of necessity it might be allowed (and with the Andes survivors). However, the Scriptures not only exhort and example prayers to the Lord alone as regards a heavenly object, but clearly established Christ as being the all-sufficient intercessor, both in terms of ability and accessibility. REMEMBER, O most gracious Virgin Mary...I fly to thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen. One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, even with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them. Which would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine by playing word games they avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship. Instead they should do what Mary and every believer in every prayer to Heaven did (and I should do more of), which was to pray directly to the Lord, not secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that. Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?
By what authority do former catholics proclaim heresies, when they are rejecting the Church and the Eucharist that Jesus established? By what authority, besides Scriptural substantiation in word and in power showing this was from God, did prophets - including a certain Itinerant Preacher from Galilee - have seeing that such were rejected by the then valid historical magisterium which sat in the seat of Moses? But the common people rightly discerned that such were of God. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things. (Mark 11:26-33) Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. (John 7:45-49) According to Catholic reasoning first century souls should have submitted to the judgment of the valid historical magisterium as concerns that authority of men such as John the baptizer and Jesus of Nazareth. Meaning you have just invalidated the NT church. | ||
