Posted on 10/04/2020 12:03:57 AM PDT by tired&retired
Jesus is here ranslating into Greek, and interpreting it to the disciples with figurative-literal language, where Elias (Elijah pronounces as in Greek or in Ger=man) is symbolic of John Baptizer's ministry to which he has been summoned and ordained, for people to turn to God from sin and thus gain a mindset that can accept Jesus as being plain-literally God-come-in-human-flesh Messiah.
You might note that much of Jesus; training in His three-and-a-half year stint with them was accustoming them to the use of plain-literal and figurative-literal language in arriving at a literal interpretation of the Scriptures (not a Romanistic allegorical one).
Not recorded means very little. We have a few New Testament pages in red. Does that mean Jesus only spoke then? Hardly.
He speaks what the Father has commanded, even now to those on His side of the veil and to the Prophets on this side of the veil.
Limiting his voice, the voice of the Father, or the still small voice of the Holy Spirit, to Biblical verses only is in my opinion the height of Pharisaical thinking.
...and what of the thousands of prophets throughout the ages, given great responsibility for their dispensations and in some cases not having tasted death? Would they not be just as engaged with those passed into eternity to bring them around from their earthly thinking, to a belief in the Lamb of God? The work of saving souls does not stop, anymore than the voices of God the Father and his only begotten in the flesh.
I was speaking of the spirit of Elijah not a reincarnation of him.
NDE’s came up and I was speaking more on that issue when the subject of Elijah and Enoch was brought up.
I’ll never step beyond 1 John 4 when it comes to scripture and doctrine. If speculation starts to go beyond Christ being God and the WORD made flesh...that’s where I stop and make a stand.
To address your observations here, we must first establish the benchmark that all cultures have, however twisted, a comcept of an All-Powerful Creator and Guider of both the non-living and living elements of the visible universe. Thar is because all humans are descendants of the federal head, the First Adam, and have some kind of verbally communicated tradition of Him. There is no "primitive" (evolved from scratch) culture. All are decadent, to different degrees straying from personal contact with the Creator as a function of the Tower of Babel debacle, the Semitic tribes less than others: the tribes of Abraham (Ishmaelites, Isaacites), Isaac (Edomites, Israelites), and Jacob (Judahites/Jews, Levites, etc.), the Judahites least of all. But Christian missionaries going out have seen this amonst long-lost branches of humanity. Some striking examples have been the naive Americans of both continents, and in the far-distant islands like Hawaii and New Guinea. This principle is illustrated in the report by Don Richardson of his work among the Sawi of Irian Jaya (click here) , whose book "Eternity in Their Hearts" (click here) I have read, perhaps 29 or 25 years ago.
These cannibalistic cultures are decadent, not "primitive."
One such person who was a Muslim.
You simply must not say that this Muslim never knew the Gospel. The knowledge of "Isa ibn Mryan" is integrated into the Koran. The essence is communicated and denied there. No Mohammedan is unaware of its defiance against Christians and what they stand for, especially resulting from the attempts of European Christian warriors attempting to regain hegemony over the areas of the Byzantine Empire, the Holy Land. You would have to prove to me that you had experienced at keast personal unarbitrated conversation with this person, for me to give any credibility toit at all.
A personal friend and Gideon in NY state tells me of story of a murderer imprisoned at Rykers who was illiterate and thought to be semi retarded . . .
From the point of view of being a member of the Gideons for 13 years, and an officer of it, I have the experience of selecting voluntary speakers for our yearly local Camp Pastors' Appreciation Banquets, for which an element is the testimony of a non-Gideon witness, speaking ten or twelve minutes of being saved through the intervening effect in his/her life of having a Gideon-distributed Bible to read at a critical point in his/her need for it. I became aware that one has to sort out which stories are fresh, new, scripturally true, and not embellished with successive retelling such that it tends toward the kind of entertainment glorifying the teller rather than the Author of the Bible. This story you are giving me here is one I would investigate rather more deply, before presenting it to an assembly of fundamental evangelical discerning pastors and other spiritua;;y mature Christian businessmen. But even they can tend to be a bit credulous and approving, a bit blind to the questinability.
I don't think this tale would hold up very long upon the personal interrogation of this candidate for a miraculous outcome.
I do believe there may be authenticity of NDE’s of those that after they had had one, were noted to have become converted to Christ and were leading lives or repentance afterword.
This type of a God-bent reaction is not at all unusual for a person whohas been more and more resistant to the Person and Work of Christ, and is no longer flexible, but brittle when broken by some life-alterung circumstance. It need not be an NDE experience, just one that brushes away the obsccurung fluff of a busy distractive life and kays bare the final unalterablre truth that in the end, it is just God/Christ and me that detetrmines my ongoing and eventually eternal existence. Just Him and me. In it, He speaks to the person, often almost volubly. This is not a scarce commodity. Did this not happen to Saul of Tarsus, the Pharisee adversary of Jesus and His servants? Was he not the writer that the Holy Spirit chose to go to the Gentiles and show them how to live as a reborn servant of The Anointed King of Righteousness? No recorded NDE’s from a culture that doesn’t have Christian influences that do have a Christ component in them would tell us that NDE’s are a real thing after all and they would tell us of the work of the Holy Spirit even in societies closed to God’s open works.
I think you're going to find it rather difficult to find such a group, but the tribes in Irian Gaya and in the jungles of South America are good candidtates. What it took to reach them was the authorized trained disciples Jesus has commanded to go and make disciples out of all tribes on the earth. There is no command in the Church Age for dosembodied unhuman spirits to do this job instead of His regenerated chosen living ambassadors who are uniquely assigned to be heralds of the New Covenant by which God deals with mankind inb this dispensation of His Grace.
Persons reacting to a near-death-of-the-flesh experience are acting on the basis of a pre-installed statement that is summed up in two words: "Jesus saves!" to which may be added the heart-remembrance of the kindness and cautions of relatives and well-meaning friends, of whom some may have been purveyors of this gospel.
Scripture says that the righteousnes of The God is written in the human heart, until it is obscured by one;s overwhelming history of sinful response, hardening the heart and dooming the soul of the person thus preoccupied.
There is no substitute for the regenerated believer to go out into the community to recruit others with the Good News and the Word of God that details God's plan of salvation.
Don't look to NDE-induced visions or disembodied spirits to do the job meant only for those who will preach as a herakd the proclamation of faith alone in Jrsus alone as that which gives pardon and absolute eternal life.
Define "REAL death experience".
Leaving out man’s PREFERENCE when ‘quoting’ this verse leaves a vastly different impression in the minds of people.
Nothing indicates that a person WILL be with the Lord immediately after death.
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Such wishful misinterpretations of Scripture are a major reason there are currently thousands of Christian sects and more of them proliferating everyday!
If he were really convinced that demon possession is real, he would no longer be a psychiatrist. The world views of the spiritual and mental health are diametrically opposed.
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I suspect there are quite a few practicing psychiatrists who have experienced demon possession and believe it to be a real phenomenon.
The things you MUST believe to be a psychiatrist/psychologist are antithetical to Christianity and the things of God.
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The things you MUST believe are surely disbelieved by many practicing psychiatrists without compromising the integrity of their medical practice in any way whatever.
“I’ll bet you’re always square in your dealing with your fellow man.!
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Not sure what exactly you mean by “always square” but no, I’m probably not.”
“on the square” = Freemasonry reference.
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6 AV; bolded and colored for great emphasis)This little highlighted phrase is very easy to skip over, but it is very, very deep.
The "us" is at least the Christ-trined and -commissioned Disciple/Apostles whose writings were once told but now inscripturated by them alone, no Apostolic Fathers or antiNicene Patristics or subsequent pious authors need apply.
In this, it would seem appropriate to include the writers of the Old Testament also, for the New Testament is concealed in the Old; but the Old Testament is revealed in the New.
He (She) that KNOWETH God HEARS the doctrine of the Apostles. But the one who is not of God does not listen to, or hear, or understand the doctrine of the Apostles.
Jesus warned of something that appears again and again in the Old and New, as recorded by Levi and others:
Matthew 12:13-17 (AV):
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.It is the hearing, speaking, and writing Apostles who have the best handle on the Old Testament Writings, even more so than the OT writers themselves, whom the Church Age regenerated disciples undergoing progressive sanctification need to hear and obey, without questioning the Apostles' authority, only questioning our own preservation and perception of their doctrine.
" And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts 2:42 AV)This was the rule of the indoctrination of the prototype Jerusalem Pentecostal Assembly, and should be ours. Not long dissertations of the social gospel, or political matters, or the state of society. Simply hearing the doctrine of the apostles and apply it in the four ordinances:
o Remember the Jesus death in the breaking of bread (and cup of the New Covenant)This is the Way of the Cross, for the Company of The Committed Ones.
o Preaching the Gospel of reconciliation to The Father through the Shed Blood of our Redeemer to all nations for the purpose of recruiting disciples and seeing them saved
o Inducting the disciples professing salvation by the delegated authority to conduct the symbolic rite of total immersion in water into a lifetime of discipleship under the teaching of the Apostle's doctrine
o Sovereignly preferring one another in the body of Christ, including Him as the Head, above self and others, as Jesus loved His chosen disciples, even to death
We need not to step beyond this holy ground, but we do need to step up to it, and not be afraid to exert ourselves in it, dear FRiend.
“on the square” = Freemasonry reference.
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Thanks for the clarification. I’ve never been interested in Freemasonry, but my great great grandfather was a Scotsman and Grand Master of a Lodge in D.C. in the 1850s.
My opinion.
You could post all the videos and pictures you have of actual exorcisms and maybe I’d change my opinion. Unfortunately in this age of ubiquitous live-streaming, video and photography, nobody ever seems to document an exorcism in that way. We are left with anecdotes, stories, and 3rd party accounts.
I think a little bit (or even a lot) of skepticism is due on this topic as a result of the lack of photographic/video/or voice recording evidence of incredibly detailed descriptions of exorcisms. Perhaps the devil is just bashful around cameras?
I think a little bit (or even a lot) of skepticism is due on this topic
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I agree.
Hm. Recommend investigation into the subject, as it is not a benign organisation. Here is one depository of information. There are many others.
http://hbcdelivers.org/?s=freemasonry
From the book.. I’m now reading it.
“The goal of this book is to present the persistent but unequivocal factual evidence of demonic possessions and assaults in a contemporary context; open-minded readers can then interpret that evidence for themselves.”
From the book
“Of the many cases I have seen, I highlight the following:
A young woman, a self-described Satanist, who levitated for half an hour during her exorcism in front of eight witnesses—a “once in a century” case, in the words of her two experienced exorcists.
A housewife whose hearing was blocked whenever anyone mentioned anything related to religion and who uttered vile blasphemies during recurring trancelike, possessed states.
A professional woman who suffered from unexplained bruises, spoke several languages completely unknown to her, and during her states of possession periodically ran amok, potentially wreaking havoc on herself and her reputation.
A petite woman who in her possessed state threw a two-hundred-pound Lutheran deacon across the room.
In such cases, I’ve worked hard to develop a system of investigation based on my psychiatric training and experience.”
From the chapter on Julia, the Satanist priestess. The priest, psychiatrist and Julia were in the car. With the priest driving.
“From the back I heard a deep, raspy voice, “Leave her alone, you f**king monkey priest.”
Startled, I turned around and saw Julia glaring at us, her fists clenched. “She is ours. We will never let her go. You’ll be sorry, you stupid monkey priest.”
The “monkey” part I’ve always felt a fair indication of how evil spirits view us humans. The voice was coming out of Julia’s mouth, but it wasn’t really Julia. Her face had taken on a distant, even vacant look. She went on like this for ten minutes.
Suddenly, the voice stopped, and Julia reemerged from whatever state I had just witnessed. She had no idea what had just happened. I asked her whether she remembered telling the priest anything.
She did not, and she asked us what had been said, where we were, and how far we had traveled.”
Per the book... a statement by Julia, the satanist priestess.
““I was the cult’s main breeder,” she said. “I could get pregnant easily, which gave me a special status in the group.
We had someone who could perform abortions, a physician’s assistant, I think, a repulsive guy. We used fetuses for ceremonies.
Daniel(head of the cult) encouraged it and said he and Satan would honor and reward me greatly for this ‘service’ and be eternally grateful for my role.”
Father A., the head exorcist priest and Jaques, the priest friend of the psychiatrist were giving Julia a ride home when....
“Father Jacques had previously instructed me how evil spirits can affect our own senses and material reality, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to tell the difference at times between what’s real and what isn’t.
Because both he and Father Jacques saw the same things, Father A. believed the spirits were altering material reality at that point and reflected their ability to assume, visibly, various shapes when appearing to humans. “They appeared, seemingly, in front of the windshield—fleeting, wavy, dark things,” he said.
As Father A. started to pull the car over, the headlights of the Chevy went dark, along with all the dashboard lights. Driving blind, Father A. veered the car into a small ditch, shaken, no doubt, but unhurt.”
Per the book
“known as Mara Salvatrucha, MS-13 started as a Los Angeles street gang of Salvadoran immigrants who had fled their homes following the civil wars of the 1980s.
Eventually, MS-13 spread to a few other US metropolitan centers, including in Northern Virginia and Long Island, where they quickly developed a reputation for drug dealing, child prostitution, robbery, and other acts of violence, from beatings and stabbings to murder. A number of ex-gang members have openly testified to their worship of what they regard as demons.
“Sometimes when we wanted to find out if people were snitching on us, we would summon the devil,” a former member who called himself Speedy told the New York Post in June 2017.
“We used a Ouija board to call him.”
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