Both statements are categorically and provably wrong and you have been provided proofs many times. But you just believe whatever you want, you're entitled to your own opinions. I know why I believe what I do and I'm not afraid to defend it. What I won't do is ridicule or mock others who disagree with me on it. Nor will I condemn them as un-Christian or hell-bound like some have towards those of us who believe in the Rapture/catching-up of the church prior to the Tribulation and then the Millennial (1000 years) reign of Christ upon the earth.
If I am commenting on the rapture threads or against your flawed beliefs it is because we are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints.
Except that's not what you were doing with THIS thread, were you? You posted an article from a link by someone named "James" who stated:
Just like James, you disbelieve in the Rapture and used the writings of someone who thought he could set the date for the Rapture and was wrong 32 years ago to mock the whole doctrine and those who believe in it. I think you posted this as a reaction to several threads here about the subject and the comments of others with whom you often criticize and disrespectfully mock. You have established your own reputation for that, you know. You hold grudges.
That curiously seems to bother you that I point out the numerous flaws in your belief system - why is that?
Nope, it doesn't bother me at all - if that's really your motive - but that's not what you do. As I pointed out, you intentionally provoke and then mock when others voice their disagreement. I think you have missed the benefit of us having OPEN Religion Forum threads here. I don't see much edifying not to mention "intellectually stimulating" dialogue from you.
Here is proof that the pre-Tribulation rapture is a 19th century invention
John Nelson Darby was an ex-Anglican who used the pre-Trib rapture conception to gain followers in a young nation recovering from the trauma of the Civil War. Darbyites taught that the rapture would usher in Daniel's 70th "week" and you Darbyites have 2 to 4 "judgements" and a split covenant -- as J Dwight Pentecost wrote "There are two covenants as seen in rapture theology: the first with Israel and the second with the church. This... would divie the references to the new covenant in the New Testament into two groups"
So rapturists like Clarence Lakin tells rapturists that the Sermon on the Mount has no application to the Christian but only to those who are under the Law.
Darybism and your specific split covenant pre-Trib rapturism is purely a 19th century philosophy
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
To analyze this verse, lets start with the most important and obvious point. The passage tells us WHEN the “rapture” is going to happen. Verse 52 tells us that it is going to happen at the Last Trumpet. If we look in Revelation, we can see that there are seven last days trumpets, and the Last Trumpet, the seventh, is described in Revelation 11:15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
This occurs at the END of the tribulation and clearly is Christ’s second coming. Remember the Lord’s prayer where we pray, “Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Your Name. Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven”. This seventh trumpet represents the answer to this prayer believers have prayed throughout the ages. Christ has returned to reign over the earth. His Kingdom has come! So, one must ask, how many trumpets are there after the Last Trumpet? If the Last Trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52 is before the tribulation, how can there be 7 more trumpets during the tribulation? In this case, it would NOT be the last trumpet. No, the Last Trumpet is exactly what it says, it is the Last Trumpet. There will be no more trumpets after the last one. Those who argue for a pre tribulation rapture will say that 1 Cor 15 is talking about a different set of trumpets. When you ask them for a scripture to defend this contention, they will typically hand you a fascinating rapture video by Tim LaHaye, but they will be completely unable to provide a textual basis for their contention that the last trumpet is in fact not the last trumpet.
Next up, we have a second indication of timing. We are told in 1 Cor 15:51 that Paul is describing to us a “Mystery”. Hmm . . . I wonder if the Bible gives us any more end times verses on this “Mystery” of God. We have to look no further than Revelation 10:5-7:
5 The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
We are shown here that the Mystery of God alluded to by Paul in 1 Cor 15:51 would be completed with the sounding of the seventh trumpet. We have already shown that the seventh trumpet happens at the end of the tribulation and is associated with the blessed second coming of Christ.
Finally, we look at the other blessed promise that occurs at the time of this resurrection of the dead and the “rapture” of the church. We are told that in 1 Cor 15:54-56 that this is the time that Christ will win victory over death. In fact, “Death is swallowed up in Victory”. Everyone will agree that Revelation clearly teaches that millions of believers will be martyred in the Tribulation. If the events of 1 Cor 15 occur before the tribulation, and this is the time that Christ wins final victory over death, how can it be millions of Christians die AFTER Christ wins final victory over death?
If we place the events of 1 Cor 15 where the verse tells us to put them, at the last trumpet, which is at the end of the tribulation and is Christ’s second coming, ALL the textual problems go away, and the story fits like a glove.
So, why do we do so much damage to scripture to place the “rapture” before the tribulation. Well, it is like I said before, it sells well. In fact so well that literally Billions of dollars have been made selling believers books and videos teaching that they will not have to endure hardship. As westerners we are so precious in God’s eyes that He would never allow us to suffer tribulation, persecution or martyrdom. To this, I must ask, what about the almost 10,000 Christians that have been slaughtered this year in Africa alone? In Nigeria Christian communities are being wiped out in mass for their faith. In Kenya, schools, shopping centers, buses and more are routinely attacked. In many of these attacks, Christians could save their lives if they would denounce Christ, but they choose death over denouncing their faith. Where is their rapture? Is it only Westerners that God so favors as to spare them persecution?
Again, the danger of the pretribulation rapture doctrine is not that it is off on eschatology, but that it is off on understanding the attributes of God and the promises of the Bible. God never promised that we would not face persecution, and he never promised that we would not face tribulation. The promise of the Bible is that He would be with us and give us strength WHEN those things happen. To believe in a pre tribulation rapture is to not be ready for the things that will come upon the Church in those last seven years known as the Great Tribulation.
So to believe in a pre tribulation rapture, we must believe that:
17:13-14 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, adn whence have they come?" I said to him "Sir, you know." And he said to me "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."The washing of the robes means those who have been delivered
The Great Tribulation talks of how NERO persecuted God's people - this sustained and vicious tribulation of the Church started when Nero, the little horn, needed a scapegoat for the great fire of Rome. This state-sponsored persecution continued for about three years, until Nero diverted attention tot he Jewish-Roman war
Jesus clearly told the Sanhedrin that they would see evidence of the coming of the Son of man as predicted in Daniel 7:13 - for you to say this will happen after 2019 is FALSE. Jesus on the eve of His crucifixion made a promise to the Sanhedrin that THEY would see evidence of the coming of the Son of Man - he wasn't wrong by 2000 years!!!
Daniel clearly talks of the destruction of the Temple as the time of the Great Tribulation.Hebrews 9:24-25 christ has entered into Heaven itself, not to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the High priest enters the Holy place yearly with blood not his own; for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once and for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself
Daniel states that the purpose of the time is to bestow 6 blessings. These blessings were bestowed as a result of the first Advent The seventy weeks are decreed 'to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy."
The day when Christ was born, eternal righteousness was revealed, and the Saint of saints was anointed, namely Christ, and the vision and prophecy were sealed and those sins were remitted... It was because the prophecy was fulfilled by His advent that the vision was confirmed by a seal; and it was called a prophecy becuase Christ himself is the seal of all the prophets