Cronos constantly posts these threads to cause dissension and bickering among Christians. It is one thing to try to educate and win people over to Christ. But it seems clear to me that Cronos intention is solely to ridicule and instigate. Yet previously on his homepage, he stated the following (which he only recently deleted from his homepage after recognizing what a fraud and hypocrite it revealed him to be):
Previously from Cronos homepage:
It is intellectually stimulating to discuss these things God has allowed us to know about, but I don’t believe He intends us to be at enmity with each other over things we may only be able to nibble at the corners of. If it helps us to further our knowledge and appreciation of God and ourselves within His plan, that’s good. If it draws us away to opposing corners in anger at brethren in Christ, it’s not so good.
You, bramps, keep bringing up the famous “rapture” passage found in 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17 which reads:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This passage, when placed in the larger context of the chapter, is answering questions that Christians in Thessalonica had concerning death. What has happened to our loved ones who have died before the return of Christ to earth? What is theirs and our ultimate destiny? Paul’s answer: bodily resurrection at the return of Christ to earth! Not an escape into the sky [see appendix below!].
In this passage, Paul borrows two specific images from the Old Testament that would have been familiar to Jewish converts and Gentiles who were familiarizing themselves with the Hebrew tradition. The first of these that Paul employs in the text has to do with Moses who comes down from Mount Sinai with the Law with the great blast of the trumpet.
The second image is taken from Daniel chapter 7 where the “one like the son of man” (or “human being” or “The Human One”) and the community he represents is vindicated over the enemies of the people of God. Clouds here symbolize the power and authoritative judgement of God about the rescue of his people. This idea now seems to be applied to Christians who are facing various forms of persecution.
there is a third image in the text that comes from outside of the canonical context. This is the image of an emperor who visits a city. The people of that region would have gone out to meet him to usher him into their home in a royal procession out in the open air. This, Paul seems to apply to the church who will usher in their King into the new creation.***
Rapture, as it is popularly understood, is nowhere to be found in this “rapture” passage. Christ will return to resurrect, to purge, to heal, and to establish the eternal kingdom of God on this earth. Heaven and earth will unite like a bride and husband – for all eternity. That’s it.
The Bible teaches that when Christ comes back, it will be Good News! “‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away’” (Revelation 21.4). Surely we cannot erase judgment from the picture, but the hope is that those in Christ will be raised to eternal life and everything that is wrong with this world will be made right.
bramps This world renewed is going to be our home for eternity, and we have the opportunity to reflect that future in our present. Rapture invites us to escape this world: the last thing that Jesus would have ever taught!
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The word underlying “air” in 1 Thessalonians 4.17 is the Greek word “ἀήρ” (Strong’s: #109).
The usage of ἀήρ in the New Testament by verse:
Acts 22:23
…εἰς τὸν ἀέρ
…dust into the air,
1Co 9:26
…ὡς οὐκ ἀέρα δέρων·
…one that beateth the air:
1Co 14:9
…γὰρ εἰς ἀέρα λαλοῦντες.
…shall speak into the air.
Eph 2:2
…ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος τοῦ πνεύματος…
…power of the air, the spirit that…
1Th 4:17
…κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως…
…the Lord in the air: and so shall…
Rev 9:2
…καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ ἐκ τοῦ…
…sun and the air were darkened by…
Rev 16:17
…ἐπὶ τὸν ἀέρα καὶ ἐξῆλθεν…
…vial into the air; and there came…
1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air 2)the atmospheric region[1]
After surveying the above seven occurrences, it is clear that the definition is simply the area of unseen space in our atmosphere. Below, the meaning in its various usages are explained:
ἀήρ (aēr, 109), ἀέρος, ὁ, (ἄημι, ἄω, [cf. ἄνεμος, init.]), the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer ὁ αἰθήρ, cf. Hom. Il. 14, 288), the atmospheric region: Acts xxii. 23; 1 Th. iv. 17; Rev. ix. 2, xvi. 17; ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος in Eph. ii. 2 signifies “the ruler of the powers (spirits, see ἐξουσία 4 c. ββ.) in the air”, i. e. the devil, the prince of the demons that according to Jewish opinion fill the realm of air (cf. Mey. ad loc.; [B. D. Am. ed. s. v. Air; Stuart in Bib. Sacr. for 1843, p. 139 sq.]). Sometimes indeed, ἀήρ denotes a hazy, obscure atmosphere (Hom. Il. 17, 644; 3, 381; 5, 356, etc.; Polyb. 18, 3, 7), but is nowhere quite equiv. to σκότος,— the sense which many injudiciously assign it in Eph. 1. c. ἀέρα δέρειν (cf. verberat ictibus auras, Verg. Aen. 5, 377, of pugilists who miss their aim) i. e. to contend in vain, 1 Co. ix. 26; εἰς ἀέρα λαλεῖν (verba ventis profundere, Lucr. 4, 929 (932)) “to speak into the air” i. e. without effect, used of those who speak what is not understood by the hearers, 1 Co. xiv. 9.*[2]
Although ἀήρ is not a word that is frequent in the New Testament, it is interesting to note that there is only one other word that is translated into English as “air.” The Greek οὐρανός has a different meaning when used as “air” than ἀήρ. Rather than referring to the “lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air,” it means:
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
- a. the universe, the world
- b. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
- c. the sidereal or starry heavens
2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings[3]
It seems that the difference between these two words will prove to be significant. The word in the 1 Thessalonians text indicates the “air” of the “lower” region as opposed to the “heavens” as οὐρανός can also be translated (heavens – 24x, heavenly – 1, heaven – 218). In other words, Paul had an option to use either of the words to talk about the “air” but he chose to use the word that refers mostly to the lower atmospheric region
I'll give you this, bramps - you definitely do NOT do this more than seldom - unlike daniel or boatbums here.
Yet you aren't innocent as the two posts show - correct? If you can criticize another faith, then you raise your heckles when that faith points out the flaws in yours??