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To: Cronos; daniel1212
Christ's Church on earth is called the Kingdom of God in the Holy Scriptures.

Not so. The scriptures uses the "kingdom of God" and the "kingdom of heaven" interchangeably. They are one in the same. For example:

Matt 19:23-24 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

From this text along Christ isn't telling us the kingdom is the Church as you're using it. Rather it is a spiritual realm. It is not some earthly realm.

I would suggest that the Church (church) on earth is a corrupt institution, just like the temple practices became corrupt. Though it is meant as a place to have sweet fellowship, one should never forget there are wolves among the flock. It is the spiritual church (those remnant) who are true born again believers that make up the kingdom of heaven (God).

18 posted on 08/29/2020 7:49:33 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Matt 19:23-24 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” From this text along Christ isn't telling us the kingdom is the Church as you're using it. Rather it is a spiritual realm. It is not some earthly realm.

Indeed, and as explained, the RCC cannot be this kingdom for besides its novelties and contrary beliefs, it has sanctioned the use of the sword of men in order to deal with theological dissent. Thus the RC will argue that in the spiritual realm their church is a pure spiritual body, so that all without are damned, but if they are V2 RCs, they can say that faithful baptized Prots are part of the Catholic church, if imperfectly. Which is absurd, since the RCC and the body of Christ is not one and the same, though a few RCs are in it, by the grace of God. And it all gets into the conflicting interpretations of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

20 posted on 08/29/2020 5:21:36 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: HarleyD
Good point

Matthew
  English: Douay-Rheims Latin: Vulgata Clementina Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
  Matthew 19
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus autem dixit discipulis suis : Amen dico vobis, quia dives difficile intrabit in regnum cælorum. ο δε ιησους ειπεν τοις μαθηταις αυτου αμην λεγω υμιν οτι δυσκολως πλουσιος εισελευσεται εις την βασιλειαν των ουρανων
24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Et iterum dico vobis : Facilius est camelum per foramen acus transire, quam divitem intrare in regnum cælorum. παλιν δε λεγω υμιν ευκοπωτερον εστιν καμηλον δια τρυπηματος ραφιδος διελθειν η πλουσιον εις την βασιλειαν του θεου ειουρανων

The kingdom of God: as in Mt 12:28; 21:31, 43 instead of Matthew’s usual kingdom of heaven.

however both are used to refer to what Christ inaugurates on His ascension.

You are correct, that this is NOT just some earthly realm - I added the "just" - the Kingdom is God's covenant family. The Church is the physical representation on earth of the Kingdom of God in heaven

The Bible continually uses the terms kingdom of God, Kingdom of heaven, Messianic Kingdom and Church interchangeably

-- And if we look at Daniel's timing - he was clear that the Kingdom of heaven would start in the 1st century AD

Let's look at Matthew 13

He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[a] among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants[b] of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matt. 13:24-30, ESV)
What is this saying? Jesus is saying the kingdom of God has arrived and is GROWING. BUT…the kingdom of the world and demons (Jesus always appears to take note of BOTH earthly and heavenly realities as at war with one another) has been sown and is ALSO GROWING. God is permitting this too, so that his kingdom may continue to grow and that perhaps some of those weeds might become wheat.

From the standpoint of a Christian believer, the Kingdom of God is considered the Church of Christ or the Church of the Firstborn as stated in the New Testament. So in essence that means yes, it exists now.

The Kingdom of God has already arrived, and was fully instituted by Christ while He was on earth. There are three dimensions of the Kingdom of God, and all three remain valid:

  1. The Christological dimension, in other words, Jesus Himself is the incarnation of God’s Kingdom on earth. Luke 11:20; Luke 17:21; Matthew 13:44, 13:45–46.

  2. Mystical dimension, in which the Kingdom is understood as being in our heart, Eph 3:16–17, Luke 17:21, etc.

  3. Ecclesiological dimension: the Kingdom of God is the Catholic Church. This dimension is clearest in some of the Kingdom parables of Matthew 13; as well as John 3:4, Col 1:13, Rev 1:6, 9; 5:10. And most especially in Hebrews 12:22–28.

38 posted on 08/31/2020 4:10:59 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: HarleyD
Also if we look at Daniel's predictions, they end with the destruction of the temple and the creation of God's Kingdom

Apologies for the delayed response and a second apology for the length of the response to you

Let's look at the entire passage of the Olivet discourse

[1] And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple. [2] And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. [3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? [4] And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: [5] For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

[6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

[26] If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. [27] For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. [28] Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. [29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. [32] And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh. [33] So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors. [34] Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.

In this Jesus answers two questions "When will the 2nd temple be destroyed"

The opening verses of the Olivet discourse set the scene for this - they left the temple and His disciples ask him about the temple

Jesus answer Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down - this was done by the Roman legions under Titus and is the final fulfilment of Micha 3:12

Therefore, because of you,
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
and Jerusalem reduced to rubble,
And the mount of the temple
to a forest ridge.
The Olivet discourse then talks about the 8 signs that Jesus said would lead to the Temple's destruction that were important for the Apostles to recognize
  1. Sign 1: false messiahs - Matt 24:4-5 -- Up to 70 AD there were several supposed messiahs in Judea who led armies against the legions. They were killed with their followers. At the time of the Jewish captivity, there were many leaders who declared themselves to be Christs (Messiahs), so that while the Romans were actually besiegin them, there were three factions within - and Joseph mentions them as "Imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly""

  2. Sign 2: Wars You will hear of wars and rumors of wars Matt 24:6 - there was civil war in Rome itself

  3. Sign 3: famines - during the war the Jews in Jerusalem underwent a severe famine - St. Paul wrote about it in his letter to the Corinthians (2 Cor 8)

  4. Sign 4: earthquakes erupted frequently - the city of Colossae was destroyed in an earthquake in the 50s. And Pompeii had one in 63 AD (the same Pompeii that was destroyed by volcano in 79 AD)

  5. sign 5: persecution - Matthew 24:9 - Nero's persecution killed Peter and Paul

  6. Sign 6: Apostasy - Matthew 24:10-12 - this is reflected in Revelations 2 about the Nicolaitians

  7. Sign 7 - the gospel worldwide. What did Paul say in Rom 1:8? First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world and in Col 1:5-6 First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world in Paul's mind there was no doubt that the gospel had gone out into the whole world Clement wrote in 73 AD that Peter and Paul had been martyred, but not before they "taught righteousness to the whole world, and they came to the extreme limit of the west" -- the word used for "world" is oikoumene - which specifically means the civilized world i.e. the Roman Empire - the Olivet discourse does not use the world "Kosmos" that designates the entire earth.

    Kosmos in Matt 24:21 From the beginning of the world (kosmos) until now"

  8. Sign 8: Daniel's desolating sacrilege. Matt 24:15-19. Note that the Sanhedrin believed that this had been fulfilled in 167 BC, but that did not meet Daniel's prophecy of 3.5 years

    Jesus then mentions in 24:21 the Great Tribulation - which is for the Jesus-movement Jews.

    There has never been, nor will there ever be anything rivaling it. The Church was close to being smothered in its cradle if Nero continued and the Jerusalem Christians had not escaped to Pella - this was a tiny community, primarily Jewish and was attacked by both the Roman authorities AND the Jewish authorities. That WAS the great tribulation

THEN, in Matt 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved - This is apocalyptic language exactly referring to Isaiah 13:10-13 The stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light... I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place" - Jesus is foretelling the overthrow of nero and the Sanhedrin. He draws a parallel between the shaking of Babylon and the shaking of Jerusalem (and that's the basis of John's vision in the book of revelations)

This is also reflected in Haggai 2:6-7 Thus says that Lord of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts

This splendor is Christ and the house is the Church. The Sanhedrin was uprooted forever, never to be validly re-established again.

==================
I'm finally answering your question, apologies for the background lenght
=============================

Now to Matt 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds on heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other -- and on reading this with Daniel we have

================

Mara Bar Searpion, a pagan Syrian Gentile who wrote a letter to hsi son around 73 AD wrote "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged"

Only God could make the type of prediction that Jesus made and have it come true. Consider how while Jerusalem was still standing,Jesus foretold what would befall it from the hand of hte empire. At that time there were no armies around Jerusalem encompassing and besieging it for the siege began three decades after His death

Finally the fig tree - "you know that He is near, at the very gates." - the generation of the fig tree was the people who lived to see the destruction in 70 AD

That is why the Gospel according to john does not include the Olivet discourse because revelations was written before 67 AD but the gospel according to john was written after 70 AD

46 posted on 09/04/2020 8:35:38 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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