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To: Mark17; Luircin; aMorePerfectUnion; metmom; Roman_War_Criminal
I think it's because they mistakenly believe Mary had to BE a sinless vessel in order to bear Jesus' human body. Since he is God, and God cannot be in the presence of sin - even though Jesus was surrounded with sinful people His whole ministry as well as family members he grew up with. They also have some strange ideas about Jesus' birth, how that Mary was spared from labor pains (a consequence of Eve's sin per Genesis 3:16) and she remained an "intact" virgin (not humanly possible unless she had a C-section). The veneration/worship of Mary and the belief that those who serve her will be saved and those who don't will be condemned also play into their refusal to rely upon the Scriptures for their doctrines. Of course, Mary was a human woman, of the lineage of David, a chaste virgin and a follower of Jehovah. It doesn't seem to interfere with their rejection of predestination when they assert Mary was preserved from all sin from her birth (saying she did not inherit the Adamic sin nature of which God says we ALL do) but then insist that she had a choice when the angel Gabriel announced she would bear the Messiah. What if she said no? Would she get a retroactive sin nature??? Did God have a Plan B???

I've come to realize that it's usually pointless to argue with them about Mary. She means more to them than Jesus Christ. Even Luther talked about the idea they were taught that Jesus was hard and aloof, judgmental and stern, and that they would have better luck appealing to His Mom since she was sweeter and nicer. Astonishing, really. At least we know why we don't agree with them on their Marian dogmas and we have Scripture AND reason to back it up. It is definitely NOT because we hate her or disrespect her. Jesus is who saves us - He is the object of our worship. His glory He will not share with another.

865 posted on 08/21/2020 7:11:46 PM PDT by boatbums (Come unto me all you who are burdened and heavy laden - for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.)
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To: boatbums

Amen. Yes Mary was blessed. She likely spent more time with Jesus than any other human. She was at His feet when He died for us. Likely she saw Him after the Resurrection as well. She was blessed because of what God did for her not because of any merit or sinlessness of her own. There is no queen of heaven only a King. God would not have left that important a detail out of scripture.

The real travesty is painting the One who died for us and freely gives us all things as a petty tyrant that has to be appeased by mommy before grudgingly giving us anything. Christ rushes to meet us in our need and supplies far more than we could ever imagine. He eagerly wants fellowship with us - as much as that boggles the mind. God is not our stern and aloof father but our loving daddy. Mary worship turns the gospel of grace on its head and puts another equal or even superior to God - in catholic mythology Christ has to obey Mary.... What a tragedy that robs catholics is the relationship God desires.


870 posted on 08/21/2020 7:23:25 PM PDT by Mom MD
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To: boatbums
but then insist that she had a choice when the angel Gabriel announced she would bear the Messiah. What if she said no? Would she get a retroactive sin nature???

LOL, a retroactive sin nature. Now that, is funny. It’s a good question, though. Just my opinion, but I think that every young Jewish girl dreamed of being the mother of the savior. They may not have completely understood it. I don’t think Mary understood it. She had to ask how, since she didn’t “know” a man, sexually.
This so called “choice” idea is bogus. The angel Gabriel, didn’t ask Mary for her permission. He TOLD her what was going to happen. There was no choice involved.
I think you are on to something. It’s pointless to argue with Catholics about Mary. I don’t agree with them, on Mary, but, whatever. 😁

883 posted on 08/21/2020 8:04:40 PM PDT by Mark17 (USAF Retired. Father of a US Air Force commissioned officer, and trained Air Force combat pilot.)
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To: boatbums
What if she said no?

It would have made NO difference!

She was TOLD what WAS going to happen; period!


Luke 1:26-38  Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shalt come upon thee, and the power of the most High shalt overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shalt be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:

37 Because no word shalt be impossible with God.

38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 



(shall / shalt is NOT 'asking' Mary if she'll do something for GOD)

(This ain't CONSENTING)


904 posted on 08/22/2020 4:21:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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