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Posted on 08/09/2020 7:46:24 AM PDT by MurphsLaw
We should stop trying to evangelize Protestants, some Catholics say. “Let’s get our own house clean first, before we invite our fellow Christians in,” someone commented on a recent article of mine that presented a Catholic rejoinder to a prominent Baptist theologian. Another reader argued that, rather than trying to persuade Protestants to become Catholic, we should “help each other spread God’s love in this world that seems to be falling to pieces before our eyes.” As a convert from Protestantism, actively engaged in ecumenical dialogue, I’ve heard this kind of thinking quite frequently. And it’s dead wrong.
One common argument in favor of scrapping Catholic evangelism towards Protestants is that the Catholic Church, mired in sex-abuse and corruption scandals, liturgical abuses, heretical movements, and uneven catechesis, is such a mess that it is not, at least for the moment, a place suitable for welcoming other Christians.
There are many problems with this. For starters, when has the Church not been plagued by internal crises? In the fourth century, a majority of bishops were deceived by the Arian heresy. The medieval Church suffered under the weight of simony and a lax priesthood, as well as the Avignon Papacy and the Western Schism, culminating in three men claiming, simultaneously, to be pope. The Counter-Reformation, for all its catechetical, missionary and aesthetic glories, was still marred by corruption and heresies (Jansenism). Catholicism has never been able to escape such trials. That didn’t stop St. Martin of Tours, St. Boniface, St. Francis de Sales, St. Ignatius Loyola, or St. Teresa of Calcutta from their missionary efforts.
The “Catholics clean house” argument also undermines our own theology. Is the Eucharist the “source and summit of the Christian life,” as Lumen Gentium preaches, or not? If it is, how could we in good conscience not direct other Christians to its salvific power? Jesus Himself declared: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53) Was our Lord misrepresenting the Eucharist?
Or what of the fact that most Protestant churches allow contraception, a mortal sin? Or that Protestants have no recourse to the sacraments of penance or last rites? To claim Protestants aren’t in need of these essential parts of the Catholic faith is to implicitly suggest we don’t need them either.
* Moreover, in the generations since the Reformation, Rome has been able to win many Protestants back to the fold who have made incalculable contributions to the Church. St. John Henry Newman’s conversion ushered in a Catholic revival in England, and gave us a robust articulation of the concept of doctrinal development. The conversion of French Lutheran pastor Louis Bouyer influenced the teachings of Vatican II. Biblical scholar Scott Hahn’s conversion in the 1980s revitalized lay study of Holy Scripture.
Another popular argument in favor of limiting evangelization of Protestants involves the culture war. Catholics and theologically conservative Protestants, some claim, share significant common ground on various issues: abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, euthanasia, religious freedom, etc. Secularism, the sexual revolution, and anti-religious progressives represent an existential threat to the survival of both Catholics and Protestants, and thus we must work together, not debate one another. “Let’s hold back any criticism of them,” a person commenting on my article wrote. “Believe me, in the times that we are in, we need to all hang together, or we will definitely hang separately on gallows outside our own churches.”
This line of thought certainly has rhetorical force: we don’t have the luxury of debating with Protestants when the progressivists are planning our imminent demise! Ecumenical debate is a distraction from self-preservation. One problem with this argument is that it reduces our Christian witness to a zero-sum game – we have to focus all our efforts on fighting secular progressivism, or we’ll fail. Yet the Church has many missions in the public square – that Catholics invest great energy in the pro-life movement doesn’t mean we shouldn’t also focus our efforts on other important matters: health-care, education, ensuring religious freedom, or fighting poverty and environmental degradation. All of these, in different ways, are a part of human flourishing. Even if we consider some questions more urgent than others, none of them should be ignored.
Besides, there is a vast difference between mere polemics and charitable, fruitful discussions aimed at resolving disagreements. The former can certainly cause bad blood. The latter, however, can actually foster unity and clarity regarding our purposes. Consider how much more fruitful our fight against the devastation of the sexual revolution would be if we persuaded Protestants that they need to reject things like contraception and the more permissive stance towards divorce that they have allowed to seep into their churches. Consider how non-Christians could learn from charitable ecumenical conversations that don’t devolve into name-calling and vilification.
Finally, abandoning or minimizing the evangelizing of Protestants is to fail to recognize how their theological and philosophical premises have contributed to the very problems we now confront. As Brad Gregory’s book The Unintended Reformation demonstrates, the very nature of Protestantism has contributed to the individualism, secularism, and moral relativism of our age. A crucial component to our Catholic witness, then, is helping Protestants to recognize this, since even when they have the best intentions, their very paradigm undermines their contributions to collaborating with us in the culture war.
I for one am very grateful that Catholics – many of them former Protestants – persuaded me to see the problems inherent to Protestantism, and the indisputable truths of Catholicism. My salvation was at stake. I also found and married a devout Catholic woman, and am raising Catholic children. The Catholic tradition taught me how to pray, worship, and think in an entirely different way. It pains me to think what my life would be like if I hadn’t converted to Catholicism.
Why bother to evangelize devout Protestants? Because they are people like me.
Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Well, that settles it then.
You missed:”He who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.” 8
So if one sins then there is spiritual death, a separation from God caused by sin. It requires action by us: repentance, confession, penance and forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession.
Christ death on the cross did not forgive our future sins.
“ Christ did not forgive your future sins.
I can’t speak for you or others, but Christ died for all sins for those that entrust themselves to Him for salvation.
Every sin is already forgiven. The believer is sealed, baptized into the Body of Christ, indwelt by the Spirit, and is imputed with the righteousness of Christ.
“ Christ death on the cross did not forgive our future sins.
Not yours, but every saved person is forgiven of all sins.
Your choice.
You don’t have a clue. You are following the lies of Satan and not God’s Truth.
I disagree bro. I don’t DO sacraments. Sorry if you follow THOSE false doctrines. I did when I was a catholic, but I am an ex catholic. I am comfortable with that. 😁 I think of that one called last rites. The only thing that will do, is send the person to Hell, all oiled up. I am just not into sacraments. They don’t do anything for me. In fact, they don’t do anything for anyone. The sacraments are just dead works, that are meaningless. You shouldn’t do sacraments either. It might give you false hope of Heaven.
I remember when I was in Catholic high school, I told the nun, who was my science teacher, that I hoped I would go to Heaven. She looked at me, like I was out of my tree. Maybe she didn’t even want to go to Heaven.
Later, I fell in love with a gorgeous nun. After I joined the Air Force. I tried to get her to leave the nunnery, but she didn’t. I had known another guy, who fell in love with another nun, and they ended up getting married. Good for them. 👍
I don't have a clue, agree.
I have the entire truth of the Gospel of Grace, as found in Scripture - everything necessary for salvation and Christian maturity.
I know Him. I'm His. I have salvation and assurance. I have the indwelling Spirit that testifies to my spirit that I am His.
And you?
Based on your posts, you have rituals not found in Scipture, the pretend claim that a gay church is the one true church, and no assurance of salvation at all.
Very sad.
I disagree bro. That makes me wonder, if I have ever agreed with even one of your doctrines? I am thinking, probably not. Why should I start now? 😁 I think someone already pointed out to you, just to blow your theory out of the water, that when Jesus died for us, all our sins were future. 🤗 I am comfortable with that. 👍🤪
...................
Can you even imaging someone, perhaps a priest or nun, not knowing the actual Gospel of Grace??
My opinion is, NONE of them know the true gospel. I have, however, known one priest and two nuns, who got woke, and found the truth, by simple faith in the REAL Jesus, as opposed to the Catholic Jesus. I am sure there are others, but what is sad, is that I have seen more Muslims come to the real Jesus, than priests and nuns.
When I was in the Air Force, I had been on vacation in Fort Wayne, and had to fly from Fort Wayne, to Chicago, to catch a flight to San Antonio, Tx. I spied a catholic nun, so I went and sat down beside her. I presented the true gospel to her. I had her flustered. All I did, was ask her if she was going to Heaven when she died. She said she hoped to. I just told her I already knew I was. 🤗 I hope she got saved later, cuz it was clear to me, that she was unsaved af that time. 🙀
This one verse in I John 5:16 is where Catholicism came up with what they call a "Scriptural" proof for mortal versus venial sins and the subsequent remedies for reconciliation. In reality, though, as far as sin in general, ALL sin is mortal because sin separates us from God. The wages of sin is death. What the context of the passage in I John refers to is seen in the verses before that one. It is talking about effective prayer:
It is pretty clear that John is talking about a brother or sister in Christ who is unrepentant in sin and which God has determined to take that person out of the world so that the cause of Christ is not harmed. Like he says, ALL unrighteousness is sin and God CAN and does forgive sin and cleanse from all unrighteousness when we confess our sins to Him (see I John 1:9). Sin in a Christian's life can separate him from being in fellowship with God. If you have a Christian friend who is sick, for example, and they are caught up in gross sin and they won't repent or seek God's forgiveness for it, God is saying even if you pray for him to be healed God may have already determined for him to die and you shouldn't expect your prayers to spare him. Remember when Paul spoke about believers who did not judge themselves and for that reason, "This is why many of you are sick and weak and why a lot of others have died." (I Corinthians 11:30)?
So the distinction is that, yes, some sins are worse than others, some sins bring God's swift chastening and discipline and some sins He slowly works on us to deliver us from their hold as He is conforming us into the image of Christ. But, unlike Catholicism's teaching, the true child of God, the born again believer in Christ, is never cast out or lost or plucked from His hands no matter what sin he may commit. We aren't saved because we deserve or merit it, we are saved by God's grace through faith and not works. He gives to us eternal life and we shall NEVER perish.
And THAT ladies and germs is how we know the gospel of Roman Catholicism is an accursed gospel.
And notice again how the reconciliation is available to baptized catholics only? You have to be a member of their club to earn your own salvation. Christ died to cover all our sin, not just some ( nonmortal as if that existed) sin done at the right time in our lives and you are in your own for the rest. Either Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient and complete (it is FINISHED) or God is a liar. I know Who I believe.
That's when the light turned on. Nobody pressured me to leave or even suggested I should, but I knew that all my life I had NOT been told the truth. It's been 50 years since then and I have never had even the slightest desire or thought to go back. The assurance of my salvation, the genuine relationship I have with my Heavenly Father, the peace of God that passes all understanding are all the reasons why I remain in my faith.
The threats and intimidations thrown at us by the RCs here are but feeble, grasping motions spurred by their OWN pride and insecurities in their faith. I really believe the discussions we have on these threads - many started by them to intentionally provoke non-Catholic Christians - have a real effect because the Word of God accomplishes what HE sends it out to do. As long as we are faithful in preaching the true Gospel, the Holy Spirit will change other hearts, as well.
When I was a catholic, I was perplexed and puzzled about what was a mortal sin. The best the priest could tell me, was that anything that was serious, was probably a mortal sin. Mmm, yeah, ok. It’s clear as mud. I didn’t really care about being moral. I wanted to commit venial sins, and stop just short of mortal sins. Later I knew I couldn’t stop, so I just said to heck with it, and committed TONS of mortal sins. I still wanted to avoid committing mortal sins of sacrilege, or the new one I learned about today, a mortal sin of columny. I have to admit I never heard of that. Later, I could not even stop from that, so I started committing mortal sins of sacrilege, mortal sins of columny, and probably mortal sins of every kind there is. Then I found Jesus. Things changed from there.
The only action sin requires is Christ dying to pay the penalty.
Your comment completely denies the atonement and is a slap in the face of Christ Himself.
I could think of no better proof that Catholicism does not preach the gospel, nor even represent the Truth, than your comment.
I can’t imagine them actually KNOWING it.
Catholics don’t understand forgiveness nor grace. They are taught and therefore think, that both are earned.
Neither can, by their very nature, be earned. If they are earned aka merited, it is no longer forgiveness and grace no longer exists. If it earned, it’s wages paid for performance done. It becomes justice, not grace.
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