| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 09/09/2020 1:17:58 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness, locked Posters, please review your posts to see what is not allowed in the Religion Forum. |
Posted on 08/09/2020 7:46:24 AM PDT by MurphsLaw
We should stop trying to evangelize Protestants, some Catholics say. “Let’s get our own house clean first, before we invite our fellow Christians in,” someone commented on a recent article of mine that presented a Catholic rejoinder to a prominent Baptist theologian. Another reader argued that, rather than trying to persuade Protestants to become Catholic, we should “help each other spread God’s love in this world that seems to be falling to pieces before our eyes.” As a convert from Protestantism, actively engaged in ecumenical dialogue, I’ve heard this kind of thinking quite frequently. And it’s dead wrong.
One common argument in favor of scrapping Catholic evangelism towards Protestants is that the Catholic Church, mired in sex-abuse and corruption scandals, liturgical abuses, heretical movements, and uneven catechesis, is such a mess that it is not, at least for the moment, a place suitable for welcoming other Christians.
There are many problems with this. For starters, when has the Church not been plagued by internal crises? In the fourth century, a majority of bishops were deceived by the Arian heresy. The medieval Church suffered under the weight of simony and a lax priesthood, as well as the Avignon Papacy and the Western Schism, culminating in three men claiming, simultaneously, to be pope. The Counter-Reformation, for all its catechetical, missionary and aesthetic glories, was still marred by corruption and heresies (Jansenism). Catholicism has never been able to escape such trials. That didn’t stop St. Martin of Tours, St. Boniface, St. Francis de Sales, St. Ignatius Loyola, or St. Teresa of Calcutta from their missionary efforts.
The “Catholics clean house” argument also undermines our own theology. Is the Eucharist the “source and summit of the Christian life,” as Lumen Gentium preaches, or not? If it is, how could we in good conscience not direct other Christians to its salvific power? Jesus Himself declared: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53) Was our Lord misrepresenting the Eucharist?
Or what of the fact that most Protestant churches allow contraception, a mortal sin? Or that Protestants have no recourse to the sacraments of penance or last rites? To claim Protestants aren’t in need of these essential parts of the Catholic faith is to implicitly suggest we don’t need them either.
* Moreover, in the generations since the Reformation, Rome has been able to win many Protestants back to the fold who have made incalculable contributions to the Church. St. John Henry Newman’s conversion ushered in a Catholic revival in England, and gave us a robust articulation of the concept of doctrinal development. The conversion of French Lutheran pastor Louis Bouyer influenced the teachings of Vatican II. Biblical scholar Scott Hahn’s conversion in the 1980s revitalized lay study of Holy Scripture.
Another popular argument in favor of limiting evangelization of Protestants involves the culture war. Catholics and theologically conservative Protestants, some claim, share significant common ground on various issues: abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, euthanasia, religious freedom, etc. Secularism, the sexual revolution, and anti-religious progressives represent an existential threat to the survival of both Catholics and Protestants, and thus we must work together, not debate one another. “Let’s hold back any criticism of them,” a person commenting on my article wrote. “Believe me, in the times that we are in, we need to all hang together, or we will definitely hang separately on gallows outside our own churches.”
This line of thought certainly has rhetorical force: we don’t have the luxury of debating with Protestants when the progressivists are planning our imminent demise! Ecumenical debate is a distraction from self-preservation. One problem with this argument is that it reduces our Christian witness to a zero-sum game – we have to focus all our efforts on fighting secular progressivism, or we’ll fail. Yet the Church has many missions in the public square – that Catholics invest great energy in the pro-life movement doesn’t mean we shouldn’t also focus our efforts on other important matters: health-care, education, ensuring religious freedom, or fighting poverty and environmental degradation. All of these, in different ways, are a part of human flourishing. Even if we consider some questions more urgent than others, none of them should be ignored.
Besides, there is a vast difference between mere polemics and charitable, fruitful discussions aimed at resolving disagreements. The former can certainly cause bad blood. The latter, however, can actually foster unity and clarity regarding our purposes. Consider how much more fruitful our fight against the devastation of the sexual revolution would be if we persuaded Protestants that they need to reject things like contraception and the more permissive stance towards divorce that they have allowed to seep into their churches. Consider how non-Christians could learn from charitable ecumenical conversations that don’t devolve into name-calling and vilification.
Finally, abandoning or minimizing the evangelizing of Protestants is to fail to recognize how their theological and philosophical premises have contributed to the very problems we now confront. As Brad Gregory’s book The Unintended Reformation demonstrates, the very nature of Protestantism has contributed to the individualism, secularism, and moral relativism of our age. A crucial component to our Catholic witness, then, is helping Protestants to recognize this, since even when they have the best intentions, their very paradigm undermines their contributions to collaborating with us in the culture war.
I for one am very grateful that Catholics – many of them former Protestants – persuaded me to see the problems inherent to Protestantism, and the indisputable truths of Catholicism. My salvation was at stake. I also found and married a devout Catholic woman, and am raising Catholic children. The Catholic tradition taught me how to pray, worship, and think in an entirely different way. It pains me to think what my life would be like if I hadn’t converted to Catholicism.
Why bother to evangelize devout Protestants? Because they are people like me.
Does it look like I got triggered, and woke? 😁🤣🤑
Not the same, but many use their own opinion for the truth.
So how many unconfessed sins do you have?
Will you be a sheep or a goat?
I don’t need an answer, but everyone should reflect on the questions.
Remember that “I will tell you, on the day of judgement men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Mat 12:36-37
No. But a lot of people on this thread are!
The Bereans are my favorite “Sola Scriptura” advocates. They “SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY whether those things were so”. Acts 17:11.
No doubt.
Yes, my favorite too. I finally became a Berean, after I left the Catholic Church. When I was a catholic, I was so clueless, I even believed in evolution. I have no idea how I could do that, but I did.
Oh, I know ebb will never apologize, even though he claims he will.
I ceased taking him seriously long ago; we are now in ‘point and laugh’ territory.
I mean, he already committed heresy against his own church’s teachings in his rabid defense of his Mary idol on this thread, AND blatantly contradicted his own prideful statements from elsewhere.
How crazy can one poster get? Let’s find out.
but many use their own opinion for the truth.
***
Yes you do. Good job admitting it.
Yes, my opinion is based on the teachings of Jesus and His Catholic Church and 2000 years of history of the Catholic faith practiced by many.
So is your personal protestant opinion appears based on man made doctrine influenced by Satan that contradicts the Bible? Such personal opinion lacks authority that it is God’s Truth. (Luke 12:56)
It appears that you do not understand when the Great White Throne of Judgment takes place. Those who are born again will not be standing for judgment on that day because we are removed BODILY / physically from the Earth even before Jesus starts opening the seven seals. The Great White Throne happens AFTER the 1000 years reign of Christ upon the Earth. You really should seek to avoid that day where you stand before that Throne. Jesus has made provision for you to avoid that day Accept it and be born again.
I don’t think you get it, ADSUM.
I don’t care about what you think any more.
Ever since you started gleefully talking about your apparent fantasy of Christians being subject to eternal damnation, my only goal has been to relentlessly mock both your posts and the Roman church of Satan that you call Catholicism.
Now if you’re ever actually willing to discuss why you think that Catholicism is true, and actually be willing to engage me on my counterpoints instead of just parroting a bunch of propaganda that has already been debunked several times on this thread, you know where to find me.
Until then, Mary is a sinner just like every other person in the world except Jesus. Jesus himself said so when he said that John the Baptist was the greatest among men, not Mary.
Ha ha ha.
Yes many Christians commit mortal sins and fall away from Christ, even if they don’t accept it.
Your comment: “Now if you’re ever actually willing to discuss why you think that Catholicism is true, and actually be willing to engage me on my counterpoints instead of just parroting a bunch of propaganda that has already been debunked several times on this thread, you know where to find me.”
I don’t believe that you are sincere as you haven’t shown any intention of a discussion. I believe that you have a closed mind and are unwilling to understand God’s Truth as understood by Christians/Catholics over 2000 years. Your discussion is basically denial without any explanation.
So how do you know that the Blessed Mother was a sinner? You don’t have that knowledge. If you rely on Romans 3:23, Not all without exception is clear: Christ, children below age of reason,mentally challenged and tradition holds that Mary, by the grace of God was conceived without sin(Scripture) and lived her entire life unstained by sin.
It isn’t about what I think or believe, it should be about God’s Truth and the path to Salvation. Without judging or condemning you, it appears based on your posts that you reject God’s Truth and the truth that Jesus established the Catholic Church to help us on the path to Salvation.
It is up to you to save your soul by accepting God’s Truth and not following man-made false doctrine inspired by Satan.
I have my own private interpretation of scripture (2Peter 1:20.) It’s a beautiful thing bro. You should try it. You might like it. 😁 I am comfortable with that.
At the great white throne judgment, I think I will gracefully bow out, and not participate. I do, however, plan to be there, as a witness for the prosecution. I plan to be sitting with the men of Nineveh, and the Queen of Sheba, and rise in judgment over this generation and condemn it. You must choose whether you want to be part of “this generation,” or if you want to be among the men of Nineveh. I made my choice.
I have lived a much more productive life, since I left the Catholic Church. If it’s OK with everyone, I think I will continue to live outside it, and I will continue to be comfortable with that. 👍
It really bothers me when personal ignorance spouts falsehoods attributing the opinion to The Word of God. I don't want you to go to hell!Let me reveal for you the Body of Christ Believers in Heaven when JESUS begins to open the seven sealed scroll/book:
Ever heard the eression 'The Elders'? well Jesus spoke of them on several occasions, and had Paul refer to them and John refer to them. Then in The Revelation of John, Jesus further relates their location, found in Rev 4 and 5:
Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Now your religion has xhosen to mischaracterize these '24' Elders as if they are ancient Elders, as in before the Body of Christ began being built. This leads folsk like you astray, to a field of tares not wheat.
Let's go further: Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11Thou art worthy, O Lord ...
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Can you recall where Paul and John and Peter referred to US as being made kings and priests reigning with Christ during the 1--- year reign of Christ?
Your religion will not allow you to see the truth contained herein because it erases the authority of your priesthood to dole out forgiveness and issue Hail Marys for restitution, and feed to you a wheat wafer claiming that they have transmogrified ... well, you get the gist.
Since 1 John 3:9 proclaims it is God abiding in the born again spirit of a man, and Jesus assured US that HE would not only prepare a place for US in the Father's House and come to take US there, well, the Body of Christ are represented by the four and twenty elders, the priests and kings who will come after the Tribulation for the thousand year reign of Christ.
The crown-wearing redeemed ARE IN HEAVEN when Jesus begins opening the seven seals which allow antichrist to come forth on that first white horse, carrying a bow but no arrows..
Can you show us where the term *mortal sin* is found in Scripture?
Chapter and verse please.
And where is the list in Scripture that delineates them?
1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
The number of unconfessed sins in our lives is irrelevant.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
The ENTIRE record of our sin debt is dealt with at the cross when we come to Jesus. He forgave (past tense) ALL our sins.
And I daresay, there’s not a person on this planet who could possibly be sure they have confessed every sin they ever committed. Nobody is that good and nobody has that kind of memory nor spiritual sensitivity.
I know Catholics like to engage in pride and the holier than thouness, by claiming they keep short accounts and implying that they are capable of living such a perfect life that they can remember every sin they ever committed, but they are just deluding themselves.
I already am a sheep.
Not wondering what I will be.
I know what I currently am.
Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
That is not the phrase “mortal sin”.
Nor is it a list of said sins.
Got something else?
“many Christians commit mortal sins”
Moral sin? No such animal. The only sin that could be considered “mortal” is rejecting Christ and His gift of salvation.
“how do you know that the Blessed Mother was a sinner?”
I won’t say, “Blessed Mother”, ‘cause that’s blasphemous. But if you’re referring to Mary, she was descended from Adam and Eve, so had that “original sin” thing going for her. Same as we do.
“Jesus established the Catholic Church”
LOL!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.