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Mass with 2 Protestants and 1 Crucifix
Defenders of the Catholic Faith Ministry ^ | July 14th, 2020 | Steve Ray

Posted on 07/31/2020 1:35:40 PM PDT by MurphsLaw

" By the way, once a Baptist said to me, “You are wrong, Jesus is no longer on the cross, He is in heaven.” It happened to be Christmas and I noticed they had a Manger Scene (creche) on their table. I said, “Why do you have Jesus in the manger? He is no longer in the manger — he is in heaven.
“And oh,” I said, “isn’t that a cute statue of Mary! I thought you Protestants considered statues to be idols? Why do you have a statue of Mary in your house?”


A while ago we went to Mass with two Protestants. As we walked in the door — there it was, as big as life — a CRUCIFIX with the Body of Our Lord hanging over the altar. I knew what the Protestants were thinking — I used to think the same — “CATHOLICS ARE WRONG, JESUS IS NO LONGER ON THE CROSS, HE HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD AND IS IN HEAVEN.” Of course they think Catholics are wrong to keep Jesus on the cross as though he had not risen and ascended into heaven.

Are they right? Well, YES and NO. Jesus DID rise and ascend into heaven and He IS glorified at the right hand of the Father and we are mystically seated there with him (1 Pet 3:22, Eph 2:6). BUT the Catholic Church is ALSO correct to show Jesus on the Cross — not only to remind us of His suffering and death and to show what happens during the Mass — but because in a mystical way He IS STILL on the Cross.

God the Father sits on His throne in heaven. And what does God see from his throne every time he “opens his eyes”? He sees Jesus on the Cross! Really? Yeah, really!

Jesus is our Passover Lamb (1 Cor 5:7). In the Old Testament the lambs were slain on Passover to save the Israelites from death. The lamb was held over the altar, his neck was slashed with a knife and the blood was drained onto the altar.

This is why we have an altar in the Catholic Church! The altar represents the Cross (among other things). An Altar is where a Sacrifice takes place! Jesus was slain as our Passover Lamb to save us from eternal death and to appease the wrath of God. That sacrifice is re-presented at the Mass (see my talk Defending the Eucharist!). Take a look at Revelation 5:5 and ask yourself — what John is telling us? It reads,

"Between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain . . .“

Who IS the slain Lamb that is still standing? Jesus is the Lamb! Standing on a altar before the throne of God the Father is a Lamb still bearing the wounds of slaugher. Jesus is that Lamb and he still bears the wounds of His sacrifice. That is what God sees when He “opens his eyes” — Jesus the sacrifice — Jesus on the altar — Jesus on the Cross.

Charles Wesley, the great Methodist minister and hymn writer agrees. In his hymn “Arise, My Soul, Arise” in which he says the very same thing in very poetic terms.

“Arise, my soul, arise; shake off thy guilty fears; The bleeding sacrifice in my behalf appears, Before the throne my surety stands, My name is written on His hands. He ever lives above, for me to intercede; His all redeeming love, His precious blood, to plead: His blood atoned for all our race, And sprinkles now the throne of grace.”

But wasn’t Jesus crucified once and for all, never to sacrificed for sins again? Yes, of course! In space and time Jesus was crucified once and for all in AD 30. In God’s eyes — in eternity which is not limited by space and time — Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world (see endnote 1) and in “eternity future” He is still seen by the Father as a slain lamb on the alter in heaven, as the crucified Lord on the Cross. All salvation past, present and future is based on this one historical event. In the Mass, Jesus is NOT re-crucified, but we partake in a mystical way in the re-presentation of the ONE ETERNAL SACRIFICE which is ever before the eyes of the Father (see Endnote 3).

I used to say “Jesus WAS our sacrifice. He cannot be crucified again on Catholic altars, so Catholics are wrong!” But the Bible says, Yes, he WAS our sacrifice, but he also IS our Sacrifice. Look at what John says in his first epistle:

“[Jesus] is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world”

The Protestant NIV renders this “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.”
The Greek word for IS (eimi) is in the present tense. Today, right now He IS our propitiation, our sacrifice. After His resurrection with His new spiritual body Jesus still has the wounds of his crucifixion (Jn 20:27). He has a body in heaven and still bears the wounds of the Sacrifice. He is presented before God as slain sacrifice — yet now alive. So, what does God see when He “opens his eyes”? He sees Jesus on the Cross! If this is what God sees in heaven, then it is certainly proper for us to show Jesus on a Cross to remind us what he did for us — and to see what God sees every day and has from eternity. So Catholic are right after all. Suprise! Surprise!

**************************** Endnote 1: There are two ways to translate this verse, but either way it comes out making the point. The best Protestant translations of Revelation 13:8 read: “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world” (NIV – New International Version).

“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (NKJV – New King James Version).

Endnote 2: Endnote 3: Catechism paragraph 1367: “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: ‘The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.’ ‘And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory’.”


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1 posted on 07/31/2020 1:35:40 PM PDT by MurphsLaw
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To: MurphsLaw

Explanation of the Crucifix...


2 posted on 07/31/2020 1:37:19 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (“In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti...Amen.”)
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To: MurphsLaw

Bookmark


3 posted on 07/31/2020 1:43:17 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (Warning! This Is A Subliminal Tagline! Read it at your own risk!(Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: MurphsLaw

Nice

I am Protestant and had come to this understanding the symbols within Cathology years ago


4 posted on 07/31/2020 1:44:40 PM PDT by Vendome (I've Gotta Be Me https://youtu.be/wH-pk2vZG2M)
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To: Vendome

“the only thing I know is Jesus Christ, and him crucified!” Paul the Apostle.

Heaven is outside of time. the Lamb appears before the throne as slain.


5 posted on 07/31/2020 1:49:10 PM PDT by KierkegaardMAN (This is the sort of stuff up with which I shall not put!)
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To: KierkegaardMAN
Heaven is outside of time.

There are many passages that argue against that ...

Job 1, Rev. 22, and others ...

6 posted on 07/31/2020 2:37:43 PM PDT by dartuser
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To: KierkegaardMAN; metmom; Mark17

Saint Stephen disagrees with you.

Acts 7:54-60


7 posted on 07/31/2020 2:46:20 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Like Enoch, Noah, & Lot, the True Church will soon be removed & then destruction comes forth.)
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To: MurphsLaw
Jeez, all the chaos happening in the world and some Freepers still find the time to squabble over crosses and
Christmas mangers. Is this a great country or what!
8 posted on 07/31/2020 2:50:02 PM PDT by Governor Dinwiddie (Guide me, O thou great redeemer, pilgrim through this barren land.)
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To: MurphsLaw

Two Protestants and a Catholic walk into a bar...


9 posted on 07/31/2020 3:00:07 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: MurphsLaw

The author does not explain why the Roman Catholic Church still depicts Christ on the cross, while Protestants portray an empty cross symbolizing His victory over death.

Yes, you can have a creche of the baby Jesus or other events in His life; but the difference in symbology is clear.
Otherwise, He could still be depicted as in the grave, which was the case on the Sabbath after His crucifixion.
Is that the ‘historical’ event Christians want to present?

(btw, don’t know any Protestants who have a statue/portrait of Mary)


10 posted on 07/31/2020 3:00:25 PM PDT by A strike (" Was that wrong? Should I not have done this? " - Costanza)
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To: KierkegaardMAN

Slain.

Past tense.

Done deal.

Not forever hanging on the cross forever being crucified but now sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for His enemies to be put under His feet.

He is RISEN.


11 posted on 07/31/2020 3:30:30 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: A strike

I was in a Methodist church once for their Easter service and they had on a table a display of an empty tomb with the stone rolled off to the side.

Much more fitting that Jesus left hanging on the cross forever.


12 posted on 07/31/2020 3:32:58 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom
It is most fitting, but doesn't negate the sacrifice. Dying daily is very Pauline. Phil Keaggy Chalice
13 posted on 07/31/2020 3:39:21 PM PDT by aspasia
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To: MurphsLaw

Francis' pectoral cross.


Pope Francis' witch's stang

Let's keep everyone happy!

14 posted on 07/31/2020 3:49:59 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: aspasia

For us. Jesus died, past tense, once for all, the He rose again.

We should rather be remembering and celebrating His resurrection and victory over death and the grave, than His actual torture and death.


15 posted on 07/31/2020 5:44:08 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

I wish Protestants would just have the guts to say they hate the crucifix because it’s associated with the Catholic Church.


16 posted on 07/31/2020 7:16:15 PM PDT by Texas_Guy
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To: Texas_Guy

No, that’s not true.

It’s not a matter of *If it’s Catholic, it’s automatically hated.*

It’s a matter of the fact that Jesus is not still on i the cross, He died, past tense, and is now risen and seated at the right hand of the Father.

The crucifix a very overt misrepresentation of the current situation.

The resurrection is a critical part of salvation.

Paul tells us here......

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

*Protestants* are celebrating His victory over death and the salvation it obtains for us.

Catholics are obsessed with participating in killing Him, as the sacrifice of the mass declares. I would not be glorying too much in the idea of participating in the killing of Jesus. The Roman soldiers were not the heroes in the story.


17 posted on 07/31/2020 7:56:38 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: MurphsLaw; ConservativeMind; ealgeone; Mark17; fishtank; boatbums; Luircin; mitch5501; MamaB; ...
Well as a Newbie you should be told that since you have chosen to post provocative anti-Protestant material, you cannot object to refutation of it (some of your comrades seem to be want anything that impugns their object of devotion to be censored).

“And oh,” I said, “isn’t that a cute statue of Mary! I thought you Protestants considered statues to be idols? Why do you have a statue of Mary in your house?”

A mere statue of man is not what is condemned, but one set up in a religious setting that fosters what Scripture describes as worship (which is not restricted to one word), Thou shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." (Exodus 20:5)

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, even with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them. Which would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine by playing word games they avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship. </p> <p>Instead they should do what Mary and every believer in every prayer to Heaven did (and I should do more of), which was to pray directly to the Lord, not secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

"Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?"

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

18 posted on 07/31/2020 8:11:34 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212; MurphsLaw
Sources for ascriptions cited above:
19 posted on 07/31/2020 8:15:11 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: MurphsLaw
And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory’.”

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:11)

According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. So it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God. Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:22-28)

20 posted on 07/31/2020 9:46:55 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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