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To: daniel1212; Elsie; Apple Pan Dowdy

Daniel, I was quoting Jesus.

That said, you should agree that there are three separate persons in one divine nature, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We should start with what we can agree on.

That said, Jesus said that He would be with us until the end. And He also said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us.

So since Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, He is both God and man then He had to have meant that He would physically be with us.

And how is He with us physically in the Protestant scheme of things? If you say that “Wherever two or more are gathered I Am with you.” The natural question is, where is He if not in the Eucharist?


27 posted on 02/03/2020 12:10:45 PM PST by RichardMoore (Without the protection of life all other right are void, dump TV and follow a plant based diet)
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To: RichardMoore
Daniel, I was quoting Jesus.

Of course you were, contextually in a reply in which this text is cited for support of a polemic in support of being a Catholic, with the only purpose of this text thus being that one must receive the Catholic Eucharist in order to obtain spiritual life!

See how obvious that is, yet you will not tell us what is the obvious import of your response is.

That said, you should agree that there are three separate persons in one divine nature, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We should start with what we can agree on. That said, Jesus said that He would be with us until the end. And He also said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us. So since Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, He is both God and man then He had to have meant that He would physically be with us. And how is He with us physically in the Protestant scheme of things? If you say that “Wherever two or more are gathered I Am with you.” The natural question is, where is He if not in the Eucharist?

How and where? Are you serious? You mean you do not know or think that Christ being with/in a believer means that this means Christ by His Spirit, as well as God, and thus can even be used interchangeably, and instead must mean physically, under the appearance of non-existent inanimate objects that suffer corruption (unlike the real physical body of Christ)?

Well then let us go to Scripture which is contrary to your compelled position:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:9-11)

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:22)

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (Ephesians 3:17)

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Colossians 1:27)

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. (2 Corinthians 1:22)

In addition, in the OT we read,

And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. (Exodus 33:14)

There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (Joshua 1:5)

For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. (Jeremiah 30:11)

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1:11)

And in a verse which clearly corresponds to Matthew 18:20,

The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. (Zephaniah 3:17)

And thus your idea that since Jesus is not the Holy Spirit then this means that He would physically be with us is absued for we see that the Spirit is used interchangeably with God/Christ, for to have one is to have the other. And which is the only way Christ is shown to be in and with the believers after the ascension, and nowhere did He ever appeared on earth as anything but in human form, versus some form which did not correspond to what He materially was.

And this to physically be with them would mean that He would appear in the same manifestly physical body that was crucified, and which is what the bread and wine would look like, rather than some form that is akin to Gnosticism.

In contrast to which manifestly physical body is emphasized by the holy Spirit of Christ:

And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:38-39)

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (John 20:27)

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (1 John 1:1)

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (1 John 5:6)

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (1 John 5:6)

Thus both your premise that Christ must be separate from the Spirit and be physically present to be with the believers, and that being physically present means as an (non-existent yet decaying) inanimate objects is refuted in the light of what Scripture actually says, and shows how the NT church understood the gospels, regardless of trying to impose Catholic understanding on it.

Return that polemic to the place you borrowed it from.

52 posted on 02/03/2020 5:14:15 PM PST by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: RichardMoore; Apple Pan Dowdy
Richard - firstly, while Apple Dowdy may agree with you on the Divine Godhead, the other non-Catholics on the thread WON'T agree with you

-- besides the Mormons who see a multitude of gods,

you have Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's witnesses who see Jesus as the archangel Michael;

and

you have some Pentecostals who deny the trinity - this oneness pentecostals teach that "Oneness teaching asserts that God is a singular spirit who is one, not three person.... "Father", "Son" and "Holy Ghost" (also known as the Holy Spirit) are merely titles reflecting the different personal manifestations of the One True God in the universe

it's very nice to try and get ecumenism, but you must realize that the only thing that unites all of these people is that they aren't part of orthodoxy. In every other belief they differ, at times rabidly

149 posted on 06/25/2020 8:44:41 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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