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Locked on 11/12/2019 11:45:53 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
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Posted on 11/12/2019 5:43:15 AM PST by Cronos
matthew 24 is not the pretrib rapture. it is the removal of unbelievers to judgement. I once thought as you did but studied the pre trib rapture to understand and refute it. Instead when i looked at all the scripture and evidence I became persuaded. Believe as you wish it is not a salvific issue. But you might study instead of dismissing out of hand.
There are several points that one can draw from the scripture.
First, it is not possible to know the timing of the rapture, either relative to other events which we can understand and may be able to see or on the overall timeline.
Two, there are several timeline points which are impossible to reconcile to a specific point in the developments. Those points are:
The rapture does not happen until the man of sin is revealed.
We who remain can believe that the rapture will occur prior to the day of Wrath. The last verse in Revelation chapter six, 6:17 says that the day of wrath is at hand—presumably a reasonable reading that it hasn’t started yet a that point but is about to start following the events described earlier in chapter six.
There is no tie between the day of wrath and the Abomination of Desolation event at which the Great Tribulation starts—thus we are not able to determine conclusively when the rapture occurs relative to the beginning of the Great Tribulation period.
So in faith we proceed knowing the truth of what God has told us and recognizing that there are things which He does not think we need to understand but must accept in faith.
See Post #84
See Post #84
I heard someone say once that the suffering of believers prior to the Tribulation is because of sin, the fallen world, etc. But the suffering that will occur during the Tribulation will be different. That will be due to God's wrath. And God will not inflict His wrath on His own children. Therefore, He will remove them right before the Tribulation. Not saying I necessarily believe in the Rapture. I'm frankly not sure what to believe. I'm not a theologian, just someone struggling to understand. But that argument did seem logical.
The Flavians didn't persecute Christians in the same empire-wide way as NeroThat didn't happen in the 90s AD :)
So Jesus said very clearly and spoke aboout the Generation that was listening to Him then
Why don't you believe Jesus' own words?
Really? Your just going to deny and argue anyway. Do you own research. I gave you enough to get started.
Show me a writing from 300 A.D. that speaks to Rapture and is not conflated with the Second Coming of Christ.
The Bible Plainly Teaches A Pre-tribulation Rapture
The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8). There isn’t one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period.
God will not put His Children (Believers) through the Tribulation Period.
Really, I’m quite familiar with several of those authors and NONE write of Rapture.
John 14, Jesus speaking to His closest followers; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul writing to COMFORT new members of The One True Ekklesia (significantly not Roman Catholics); 1 Corinthians, Paul disclosing a mystery of transformation in a moment in the twinkling of an eye when JESUS comes in the FIRST HEAVEN to gather His from the earth BEFORE the God begins pouring out HIS WRATH upon the unbelieving earth dweller left when the TRUE CHURCH is snatched away to the Fathers; House.
OE = ONE
Daviduc = Davidic
(hasty mistyping/poor copyreading)
Sorry
What you are missing is that Christ suffered the wrath of God so we do not have to. Christians suffer, some greatly. There have been and will be more martyrs. No one said the pretrib rapture is an escape from suffering. What it is an escape from is the wrath of God - which Christ suffered in our place.
I am fully prepared to suffer whatever is in my future and God will sustain me through it. BUT we are no longer appointed to the wrath of God - that is the difference.
Indeed, to my learning, the term “everlasting fire” is a mistranslation. I think it’s the
everlasting destruction BY fire.
In other words, the souls of the damned are utterly destroyed and removed from memory by the Holy Fire in the Lake of Fire, never to arise again or even be remembered.
Everlasting torment is anomalous to a merciful G_d, everlasting erasure not so much.
Just my thoughts, I’m likely wrong.
I also think the rapture is utter nonsense. Those who believe are free to do so, but I think they are mistaken. We will all learn someday.
the book of revelation was written around 90 AD. We do believe Jesus words just not your interpretation of them.
“I agree. Arguing about this is ridiculous.”
Exactly! PRE-Trib all the way!
Just kidding. Although I AM a pre-trib kinda guy, no one but God knows for sure.
To quote Satan (Hillary) “At this point, what difference does it make?”
You are CORRECT that there are so many other things that we should worry about RIGHT NOW and we can actually do something about.
sorry but Christianity is true to the Torah - the Jesus movement of 2nd Temple judaism is the one that predicted the destruction of the Temple.
Rabbi Ben zakkai formed modern day Judaism out of Phariseeism. That’s not to negate modern day Judaism - just that it was one of 5 competing sects of 1st and 2nd temple judaism
1st temple Judaism led to 2nd temple judaism and to the Samaritans
2nd temple Judaism led to Sadduccees, Pharisees, Essenes and the Jesus movement.
The Pharisees (ancestors of modern day Judaism) and the Jesus movement (ancestors of modern day Christianity) were the ones left after the destruction of the 2nd temple as they weren’t wholly based on the sacrifices in the Temple.
and again the Fromans resort to name calling when they are losing the argument
True enough
the pre-Trib rap is a 19th century creation. It’s non-biblical
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