Catholicism made me Protestant

First Things ^ | 9/11/2019 | Onsi A. Kamel

[daniel1212]

I thank you sincerely for providing that great quote!

Glad you like it, but it is nothing new, or contrary to sole fide such as Puritans understood it.

In Puritan Protestantism there was often a tendency to make the way to the cross too narrow, perhaps in reaction against the Antinomian controversy, and as described in an account (http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html) of Puritans during the early American period,

“They had, like most preachers of the Gospel, a certain difficulty in determining what we might call the ‘conversion level’, the level of difficulty above which the preacher may be said to be erecting barriers to the Gospel and below which he may be said to be encouraging men to enter too easily into a mere delusion of salvation. Contemporary critics, however, agree that the New England pastors set the level high. Nathaniel Ward, who was step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion with, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’”

[Luircin]

You love your James 2, don’t you?

Read James 2:10

“For whoever keeps the law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.”

And then refers to the Ten Commandments so you can’t use that ‘ceremonial law’ out.

ALL sin is serious sin. Every sin from murder to the impure thought of just a moment.

You think you can achieve that level of perfection?

[Luircin]

Ping to 402

[imardmd1]

Just going back once more to the two heuristic propositions that challenge the works-based theologian to make a decision:

FAITH + WORKS => SALVATION

or

FAITH + SALVATION => WORKS

Which do you choose as the operational principle?

Because of his lack of a proper Scripture-based hermeneutic prior to the time of the Reformation, the dogmatic Catholic must choose the first. Sadly, his only other option is to abandon the whole flimsy, clumsy Roman school of thought.

[daniel1212]

Maybe it's time to move on to new pertinent thread Is Catholicism about to break into three? Crux Catholic Media Inc. ^ | Oct 6, 2015 | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

[Faith Presses On]

-- You can do a million good deeds but without faith in Christ you will not be saved.
Agreed. But why do you even bring this up? Catholic no more believe in by works alone than they do by faith alone. They both must be present.

And Protestants also believe that both must be present. But this part of the issue, this debate, is really off-base, and that's the problem. Who is it that does the works? Is it Christ living in a believer, or does the believer credit them to himself, that they're done through his own will power? If the latter, then the believer is judging and commending himself, looking admiringly on what he has done as his own achievement, which is self-deception. That's making oneself like God in Genesis, as Satan does, and is a product of rebellious pride.

[Luircin]

Seems that I won the argument since he’s responding to other posts but not mine.

[metmom]

Heaven. You misunderstand the Catholic position on works. It is not that we have to earn a certain number of brownie point to earn salvation. Rather, we must be free from serious sin, just as Paul states in Galatians when he lists those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. So the question often asked, "how many good works do I need to be saved," is ridiculous and does not reflect Catholic teaching on the matter.

Then why bother with the works in the first place if they don't count for anything?

In addition, it doesn't matter if it's what men call *serious* sin or not. It doesn't matter if one dies with a lie on their soul or they are an ISIS terrorist who flew a loaded plane into a building. ALL sin kills and ALL sin an affront to God and has the same penalty and same solution, the Blood of Jesus.

Catholics are the only ones who grace sin and try to downplay its seriousness.

James, Catholic's favorite book, has something to say on the subject.

James 2:8-11 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

You all need to quit fooling yourselves into thinking that you are not as bad as others and recognize that you all are not as great as you think yourselves to be.

[metmom]

That’s right.

We are not responsible for the response.

Our responsibility is to preach and the results are up to God.

[metmom]

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

[HarleyD]

I like the phrase Saved through faith working through love. It’s in Galatians.

I'd cerrtainly would like to know where in Galatians this is. The closes I can come by is:

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

As you might notice it has NOTHING to do with our salvation. Instead Galatians 5 talks of people's walk AFTER they are saved.

If the Church inspired the writings, then it is important to get correct what they considered inspired. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time the Church is at odds with its own teachings.

[HarleyD]

Catholics will fall on their sword to defend as a miracle the “Shroud of Turin”, run into a church to rescue the thorn of crowns Christ supposedly worn, or venerate body parts of saints. Yet when one brings up the Bible as a miracle of God, they poo-poo the whole idea saying it comes from the Church.

Telling indeed.

[ealgeone]

[E]ach man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. (First Apology, Chapter XII; ANF, Vol. I, 177)

A tad disingenuous on your part. You posted only part of the sentence and didn't indicate so. You've attempted to post only the part that seems to support your position. However, when read in context, the pull sentence takes a different meaning.

Here is the full quote in context.

And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions.

Justin Martyr. (1885). The First Apology of Justin. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 166). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

*******

Let us take Enoch, for example, who was found righteous in obedience and so was taken up and did not experience death. (Letter to the Corinthians / First Clement, 9: 3; Lightfoot / Harmer / Holmes, 33; cf. 11:1; 12:1)

What does Scripture have to say about Enoch?

5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. Hebrews 11:5

18Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and became the father of Enoch. 19Then Jared lived eight hundred years after he became the father of Enoch, and he had other sons and daughters. 20So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died. 21Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methu Selah. 22Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of MethuSelah, and he had other sons and daughters. 23So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. Genesis 5:18-24 NASB

[ealgeone]

“For Isaiah did not send you to a bath, there to wash away murder and other sins, which not even all the water of the sea were sufficient to purge; but, as might have been expected, this was that saving bath of the olden time which followed those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death, who died for this very reason, as Isaiah himself said, when he spake thus: ‘The Lord shall make bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the nations and the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.

Justin Martyr. (1885). Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, a Jew. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 200). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

[ealgeone]

What would you add to the Righteousness of Christ to make you worthy of eternal life?

Wear one of these????

The price of lost salvation: 11.95 plus shipping and handling.

If you want, they'll gift wrap your idol for $4.95.

*****

I just cannot find that anywhere in Scripture.

However, we do find this:

They rejected His statutes and the covenant He had made with their fathers, as well as the decrees He had given them. They pursued worthless idols and themselves became worthless, going after the surrounding nations the LORD had commanded them not to imitate. 2 Kings 17:15

I hate those who cling to worthless idols, but in the LORD I trust. Psalms 31:6

8“Those who regard vain idols Forsake their faithfulness, Jonah 2:8

7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 1 Corinthians 10:7

[Elsie]

The way I read it you’re still sealed.

Hebrews 3:12-15

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”

[Elsie]

Rather, we must be free from serious sin, …

I guess we get a pass on the NON-serious ones; the ones that are NOT in the 'list'; right?

[Elsie]

Verse 18?

[Elsie]

Restate this.

I can’t figure it out.

[Elsie]

There are a few cats yet left here; hissing and spitting.