[ravenwolf]

Never the less it is called the holy Roman empire, it was not me that named
it.

Cronos as I have said before I agree with you on the rapture and I will give
you the benefit of doubt on the destruction of Jerusalem being the great tribulation
but after that, well I have ask you at least twice if you thought revelation
had been fullfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, you will not answer which
Leads me to believe that you know it is so full of holes that it is like an irrigation
system.

If any one reads scripture they can plainly see that revelation covers at least two
thousand years.

It is common for people to put a bunch of scripture together to try to make it fit
what they believe but like an old preacher told me one time ( I don’t give a dam what
the scriptures say just as long as I do my best to understand what they do say).

Have you read about the four beasts in Daniel 7 it is exactly the same ones John talks
about except Daniel leaves out Egypt and assyria. because they had already passed.

John’s seven kings were not the seven kings of Rome it was the seven world empires
which Isreal had been enslaved to, that is what Daniel is referring to and so was John.

Here is proof that revelation covers two thousand years or more.

1 Cor 15:20
But now Christ has risen and become the first fruits of them that slept, past tense,
want proof?

Hosea6;2
After two days he will
revive us and on the third day he will raise us up and we will
live in his sight.

Rev14:
These were redeemed from among men being the first fruits of God and until the lamb.

Rev 20:4
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurection on such the second death
has no power but they shall be priest of God and Christ and shall reign with him a thousand
years.

20:5
but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, this is us.

The thousand years had to be before and or during the holy Roman empire even though the
empire itself belonged to Satan there were 14400 of God’s people in it during the thousand years and they were
alive.

You can not ignore two thousand years of history.

[caww]

You stated..”It is common for people to put a bunch of scripture together to try to make it fit”....

There is one over-arching principle: “Scripture interprets itself.” Scripture itself is our best theology professor in helping us understand and apply Scripture.....the issues generally are how they are ‘applied’ not interpreted.

[Cronos]

Never the less it is called the holy Roman empire, it was not me that named it.

And yet the very term was not used until the 13th century.

Until that point it was plain and simple "the (western) Roman Empire"

You cannot link the HRE to anything in revelation because it was in no means the supreme world power - it was far weaker than the Ummayad, Abbassid, Fatimid Caliphates and the Ottomans and for a long time weaker than the Roman Empire (what we call the Byzantines

I repeat once more

The Holy Roman Empire, even at its peak ruled over less than a quarter of all Christians.

The HRE didn't include the Ancient Church of the East, the Assyrian Church, which in 900 formed fully 33% of all Christians and stretched from Mongolia to India to Ctesiphon.

the HRE didn't include the Orthodox who were in the Roman Empire or the Bulgarian Empire or under Islamic rule

The HRE didn't include the Copts or the Armenians or the Syriacs

the HRE didn't even include all Western Christians - even at its peak there were the Christians of Iberia, of Italia, of Poland, Hungary, England, Ireland, Scandanavia.

In what way could the HRE play any part in the kingdom of God in your opinion?

you still haven't answered how and what way

[Cronos]

If any one reads scripture they can plainly see that revelation covers at least two thousand years. -- sigh, it doesn't - the number 1000 is not a literal in the book of the Apocalypse 1000 - it signifies a long period

[Cronos]

The four beasts in Daniel is about
1 The Babylonian Empire
2.The Achaemenid Empire
3.The Macedonian empire
4.The Roman Empire

your story of the 7 kings as 7 empire (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, persia, greece and rome) fails in multiple ways
1.it is specifically mentioned as kings
2. there was never an Egyptian Empire ruling over Jerusalem — the Egyptians at the most had Judae as a vassal state.
3. it is clearly mentioned that the 7th king will be short-reigned —> your false hypothesis of this being the Holy Roman Empire fails as even in the shortest period (when it was named) it was the HRE from the 13th century to 1806 - 600 years.

[Cronos]

And the 7 kings is clearly, clearly written in Apocalypse 17-9-10 "The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come and when he comes he must remain a little while

This 7 kings over which Jerusalem sat were clearly, clearly the first 7 imperators of the Julian dynasty 1. Julius C
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. Galba

Galba ruled for 6 months -- clearly "he must remain a little while"

The 7 "world empires" you speak of again ignore the fact that Egypt was never a "world empire" - at the most it had vassal states in the Levant -- this is in contrast to Assyria, Babylonia, the Achaemenids, Macedonia, Rome, Mongolia, Umayyads, the British Empire, the Tang, the Mauryas, the Moghuls, the French, the Spanish, etc. etc. - your theory fails in the light of biblical matters and historical

[Cronos]

1 Corinthians 15 - don't excerpt, read the whole chapter - it

17 And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep:

21 For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead.

22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming.

- nothing of your 2000 years

Hosea talks of 2 days - you are interpreting that to 2000 years? Why not 20? Why not 200? heck, why not 20,000 years?

And Apocalypse uses numbers as symbols - haven't you realized that? 6,7,1000 are repeated and used symbolically throughout that book

[Cronos]

Finally you say "The thousand years had to be before and or during the holy Roman empire even though the empire itself belonged to Satan there were 14400 of God’s people in it during the thousand years and they were alive." - so many, many biblical and historical errors

The HRE belonged to Satan - you mean the same Empire that spread Christianity to the Scandanavians, to the Slavs etc.? You consider it belonging to Satan as it was the Empire that protected Christendom from the Saracen armies?

Or do you think the Ummayads, Fatimids and Abbasids were of your god?

[Cronos]

Finally you say " there were 14400 of God’s people in it during the thousand years and they were alive." - so many, many biblical and historical errors

Just 144,000 Christians in 600 years - what are you thinking? That the rest were not Christian in your opinion here living in the comfort of a Christian country in the 21st century?

[Cronos]

You can not ignore two thousand years of history.

You need to read 2000 years of history and realize that the HRE was not the pivotal empire in any way, not even to the larger Christendom

I suggest you read - perhaps start with The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died

you got a closer case for 1000 years in the Assyrian Church than in the HRE

2000 years since Christ died saw

• 0 - 300 --> the Roman Empire expands, the Parthians take over from the Seleucids, then fall in their turn to the Sassanids, the Guptas conquer northern india, the Cholas southern India
• 300-700: the Tang rule China and Xinjiang, the Sassanids conquer Egypt and much of Turkey before falling to Hieracles and then both fall to the Ummayads. The Franks and Visigoths fight and take over parts of the Western Roman Empire. The Roman Empire itself continues centered in Constantinople
• 700-1000: the Bulgarian Empire arises, so does the Frankish, Kushan, Ghaznavid, Fatimid, etc. empires
• 1000-1400: the rise of gokturks, uighurs, Song, Mongol, Mamluk, Seljuk empires, the continuation of the Roman Empire in Constantinople, the Holy Roman Empire formed, the rise of France and England as separate empires, the Kalmar union uniting Scandanavia, the rise of the Polish kingdom, the Hungarian empire, the Kievan confederation
• 1400-1700: Mughals, Ming, Manchu,Spain, France, Portugal, Mali etc. etc. empires

Ok, you get the point - your sweep of history forgets nearly all of those other powers - you don't even take into account the ummayad, abbasid, Fatimid, Mamluk and Ottoman rule over Jerusalem