Why the Rapture isn’t Biblical… And Why it Matters

Patheos ^ | June 4, 2014 | Kurt Williams

[Reily]

I never said he did. I said he convened the council, which was important. A car never goes anywhere if you don’t get in & turn the key.

Other then you implying that I said he did dogma, I agree with the rest.

[SaveFerris]

Of course. Nothing but error. And now we have someone using a site of known mockers to stir up all these problems. Hmmm......

[Cronos]

My question again - to ensure we are talking the same thing -- what do YOU mean by the Holy Roman Empire?

Do you mean

1. The Empire of the Carolingians? If so, that was not the Holy Roman Empire, rather just the "Roman Empire - Western part"
2. Do you mean what Westerners erroneously call the "Byzantine Empire" - that empire called itself and was called by others until the 1700s as the "Roman Empire" - it was a direct continuation of the Roman Empire of the Princeps, through to the Dominiate
3. Do you mean the Holy Roman Empire as started by the Ottonian dynasty (called initially the Roman Empire, until the 13th century when France called it the HRE) and died in 1806 when it was signed closed by Emperor Josef I?

can you clarify if you mean any fo these as the HRE or something else?

[SaveFerris]

Oops “AND”

[Cronos]

Rapture is non-biblical The Bible does say that Jesus will return, but never mentions a Rapture. The 'Rapture' was a theological invention of John Nelson Darby, a nineteenth-century British evangelical preacher and founder of the Plymouth Brethren.

The ‘Scofield Reference Bible’ was published by Cyrus Scofield in 1909, and contains his commentaries on the biblical text, including interpretations and notes to make the Rapture seem biblical.

The rapture is a 19th century idea that supposedly originated from a feverish child. Only because of this did it become popular to twist a new and bizarre meaning out of Thessalonians.

The Rapture refers to a passage in First Thessalonians 4, where Christians are "caught up" in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." in verse 15, Paul says that "...we who are alive, who are left," shall be caught up. This is a very important point to stress to rapture enthusiasts. Those who are "left" get caught up to meet the Lord.

Matthew 24, which compares the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Matthew 24 puts it this way: "As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man ... [they ate, they drank, they married] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left."

yet after this taking away - who is left? th good guys (Noah's family and Lot's family

Matthew 13:39-43, "... and the enemy who sowed them [the bad seed] is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

Sorry but the left behind fallacy in reading the book of the apocalypse is biblically unsound

[ravenwolf]

No apoligy needed, my belief on the holy Roman empire is based on
the history of the Catholic Church itself which believes
they are Gods kingdom on Earth and they are called the holy Roman
church after what they called the holy Roman empire fell.

While it is true that the otterman empire coexisted they Did
not persecute the jews, in fact was a safe haven for the Jews
who were persecuted in much of the Roman empire.

[Just mythoughts]

Actually the Tribe of Judah’s land completely surrounded the tribe of Simeon’s land. And there were Levites at the temple, so probably 4 tribes survived. As to the House of Israel taken away - the Assyrians moved them to northern Iraq, so probably the Iraqis and Iranians are their descendents!

Might want to check out that civil war after the reign of Solomon. Christ called them 'lost sheep' of the House of Israel and they were long gone (around 200 years before the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were taken captive to Babylon). The House of Israel, 10 tribes, did not stay in the Middle East. Where exactly did the disciple go after leaving Jerusalem? The Assyrians moved them up and over the 'Caucus' Mountains ... hence that word Caucasian.

Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin.

[ravenwolf]

I am referring to the western empire which was started with the cornation
of Charlemagne in ad 800, this is what every Bible scholar that I am familiar
with calls the holy Roman empire.

Also I have no doubt that you know exactly what empire I or any one else is
talking about concerning the holy Roman empire so don’t try to pull the wool
over this old grade school dropouts eyes because you ain’t gonna do it.

[Mom MD]

i have been convinced of the rapture long before the left behind series thank you. I have done extensive new and old testament study regarding what i believe about the end times and it is a fallacy that the rapture is a recent invention. However the point here is that regardless of what one believes about the end times falsehood and blasphemy remain falsehood and blasphemy

[Just mythoughts]

The anti-Christ, the 6-6-6 -- note that 6 in the book of the Apocalypse signifies incompleteness, while 7 signifies perfection, completeness, which is why 7 is repeated throughout (like the 7 spirits, the 7 churches-signifying the complete church) along with other numbers like 1000 (signifying a very long time, not a literal 1000 years)

We are told to 'count' the number... 6 is Satan's number.. might want to check out the 6th trump, 6th seal and 6th vial recorded in Revelation.

Peter told us that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years... For people who use Peter as a 'rock' they sure completely ignore what he penned. Might want to check out Deuteronomy 32, 'Song of Moses' we are told in Revelation the overcomers will be singing... particularly 31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. (Two 'rocks', and one is a fake.)

The anti-Christ was Nero, whose name spells out 666, who was the 6th "king" as referred to (the 7th who had a short reign was Galba who was Princep for 6 months)

Who tempted Christ? Do you believe that Christ was ever in danger of being seduced by the devil like Eve was? That was Christ first teaching, the WHO, would be playing the role of 'instead-of-Christ... Christ said all but the elect would be deceived and bend their knees to the devil playing Jesus...

Jesus in Matthew 24 very, very clearly refers to the destruction of the 2nd Temple, the literal world of the 2nd Temple Jews (of whom both modern judaism and christianity are daughter religions)

Christ declared that 'not one stone would be upon another', Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Now as for all this 'rapture' chatter ... The Heavenly Father made it clear what He thought of doctrines of 'flying' to save 'souls'. Ezekiel 13 16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

II Thessalonians 2: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[winodog]

Bump for later

[amorphous]

...and we have the New Temple, the body of Christ.

Which will be one with Christ at the end of this age.

[amorphous]

So, knowing this, we can calculate exactly when it’s saying the Messiah would die. From the command being given to rebuild Jerusalem to the death of the Messiah is 483 years. 483 years after 445 BC would get us 38 AD, but we need to convert the date, as the calendar Daniel was using was slightly different from ours.

Close enough for now...:)

[amorphous]

Anyway I digress - Constantine had no impact on Christian core dogma - that was all decided way before his birth and the dogma of the Ancient Church of the East is proof of that

This is where we differ. Constantine had a major impact on Christian doctrine and on the ability of the Jew to continue to worship in his/her own way.

Constantine changed the times and seasons for the early Christian. Later he took away the sacrifice from the Jew under penalty of death. Not himself per se, but that which he gave rise to.

An interesting fact is he subdued three kings in his rise to power. Another is ten kings followed him. Does any of this sound familiar? If not, reread Daniel from a Hebrew perspective - not that I'm one, only grafted in. :)

[ravenwolf]

That sounds close enough for me, but I am not the expert in history.

[DungeonMaster]

Shiz! LOL

[Rainwave]

Like my tag line, we must all search God out in the best way we know how. No one is going to stand next to you in the day of judgement but if we have sought out, repented (which is forever ongoing) and pray...muster just enough faith and trust, the Lord just may stand in for us in petitian to the Father. I don’t understand the trinity, but I believe God is three persons, yet One. I don’t know about the rapture, or being “Caught up in the air”, but if it does happen, I hope I’m part of that group. If I’m left behind I’ll know that I need to get my head out of my ass and help people who don’t know the Lord and teach them about prophecy and scripture because I have a head knowledge of God. But maybe my heart is not honest enough

[xp38]

What's all this about the nba champion basketball team from Toronto?

[amorphous]

Today's numbers. Before Islam, the Middle East and North Africa had far greater Christian populations.

[ravenwolf]

Far greater numbers
_____________________
i don’t doubt that.