Why the Rapture isn’t Biblical… And Why it Matters

Patheos ^ | June 4, 2014 | Kurt Williams

[Cronos]

“It is plain from history that the Holy Roman Empire played a big part in all of this” — the Holy Roman empire was from 962 to 1806 — it was founded 900 years AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem. How could it play any part in the destruction of Jerusalem? sheesh

[Cronos]

Stoned wall - the blasphemy is coming up with a fiction of “left behind”

[ravenwolf]

Question, do you believe Revelations was fullfilled in the first cenntuey.

[daniel1212]

the city of Jerusalem was utterly destroyed as you read in Josephus accounts - accounts of that time.

A precursor of what Rv. describes. Just was part of "no more" do you not understand?

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (Revelation 18:21)

And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; (Revelation 18:22)

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. (Revelation 18:23)

However, if "no more" does not mean "no more," than you can also dispense with that meaning in such verses as,

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

[daniel1212]

See above.

[daniel1212]

The imagery - Revelation is allegorical - or do you expect that John actually saw Jesus wih a two-bladed sword out of His mouth? Or was that the significance of the power of His words

Which is ignorance or cultic sophistry. JWs likewise deny eternal punishment in Hell since the word geenna refers top a garbage pit. If taking things literally mean that there can be no symbolism involved then you can also join those who deny Is. 53 speaks of Christ, (the "Lamb of God") since it also uses allegorical language.

However, If taking things literally mean that there can be no symbolism involved then it requires the sort of exegetical gymnastics that you must engage in to relegate most every end-times prophecies of the New Testament as being fulfilled in AD 70A.D.

If you want to contend this, please provide a list of all prophecies of the New Testament that you do not consider to have been fulfilled.

If you are unwilling do to this, then we should focus on what is most important, that of experiencing Biblical regeneration thru personal heart-purifying faith in the risen Lord Jesus to save the sinner on Christ's account and credit, by His sinless shed blood, and thus follow Him.

[ravenwolf]

The holy Roman empire had nothing to do with the destruction of
Jerusalem but it had a big part in the kingdom of God, every
thing did not end with the destruction of Jerusalem but had just
begun.

[Boogieman]

“Matthew 24:37 clearly says Jesus will usher in the age of the church”

Huh?

“37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Where does Jesus say anything like that in this verse?? Noah is most notable for being the harbinger of a great, worldwide calamity...

“Jesus does not mention any hint of a tribulation or a millenium after His coming”

Well, the tribulation happens BEFORE His second coming, of course, and Jesus mentions its just a few verses before, in Matthew 24:21. There is no mention of the millenial reign in this discourse, that is true, but it is mentioned in prophesies that clearly parallel this one in their sequence of specific events. Jesus doesn’t mention the resurrection of the dead here, or the last judgement either, but we know both of those follow the second coming as well. Just because they are not mentioned every time the second coming is mentioned doesn’t mean they aren’t going to happen.

However, none of that really addresses the point I made; you are just sidestepping it. You assert that this prophecy Jesus makes in chapter 24 of Matthew was fulfilled in 70 AD, or at the least, fulfilled in the lifetimes of the generation he was speaking to. That prophecy, in verse 37, includes the second coming of Jesus. So, in order for your thesis to work, you must believe Jesus has already returned.

How did every Christian on the planet, and everyone else for that matter, miss what is supposed to be an event that is witnessed by every tribe and nation?

[Cronos]

I believe what the author wrote

1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

and ends with 20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.

meaning that the first resurrection, the spiritual resurrection of the soul from Sin

Apologies for the long-winded, but yes the coming of the new Jerusalem did happen in 69 AD with the coming of Christ's Church, the New Jerusalem, where we share in the joy of the sacrifice of the lamb at each Eucharist - or as the Lutherans call it, the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Those in the great multitude, from every nation, race, people, and tongue, are the Church. They make up the New Israel, which has gone through a New Exodus. While the first Exodus involved the people of Israel being saved from the tyranny of Egyptian slavery, this final Exodus consists of the people of the new covenant being saved eternally from the domination of sin and death. As Jesus states, in the reading from today’s Gospel, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (Jn. 10:28). The salvation of a multitude too large to be counted is a fulfillment of the great covenant made with Abraham: “I will make of you a great nation … All the communities of the earth shall find blessing in you” (Gen. 12:2, 3; cf. Gal. 3:7, 29).

[Cronos]

The book of the Apocalypse is the foretelling of the destruction of Jerusalem.

It was written during the persecution of Christians by Nero so around the 60s AD and talks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 69 AD

Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed - as clearly stated by Josephus

Rev 8:7 says "a third of the land was burnt up" -- this is the description of what happened during the Jewish war that led up to the destruction of Jerusalem - the first trumpet, the destruction of the land - the scorched earth policy of the Empire

Refer to the writings of Josephus

Truly, the very view itself of the country was a melancholy thing; for those places which were before adorned with trees and pleasant gardens were now become a desolate country in every way, and its trees were all cut down. Nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change... nor if anyone that had known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again; but though he were standing at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it notwithstanding

The wars of the Jews by Josephus book 6 chapter 1

What part of "no more" and "desert" do you not understand?

[Cronos]

The millstone is exactly like Rev 8:8 "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" -- and, as I said, it echoes Luke 17:1-2 --> it is an allegory like the rest of the book of the Apocalypse

the no more music is what happened to Jerusalem in 69 AD

[Ezekiel]

It’s the narrow way.

This stuff is way more literal than the people who “take the Bible literally” might ever suspect.

[Cronos]

The cultic sophistry is taking it literally - which is the root form of your cults like the Jehovah's witnesses or the Adventists

The book of the Apocalypse is filled from start to end with imagery, specifically meant to be allegorical. the 6, 7, 1000 are not literal but allegorial

[Cronos]

The Holy Roman Empire, even at its peak ruled over less than a quarter of all Christians.

The HRE didn't include the Ancient Church of the East, the Assyrian Church, which in 900 formed fully 33% of all Christians and stretched from Mongolia to India to Ctesiphon.

the HRE didn't include the Orthodox who were in the Roman Empire or the Bulgarian Empire or under Islamic rule

The HRE didn't include the Copts or the Armenians or the Syriacs

the HRE didn't even include all Western Christians - even at its peak there were the Christians of Iberia, of Italia, of Poland, Hungary, England, Ireland, Scandanavia.

In what way could the HRE play any part in the kingdom of God in your opinion?

[Ezekiel]

Regarding the star sailors: many are called, but few are chosen.

[HarleyD]

The idea being that human nature and God's nature doesn't change, so things will continue in a similar manner.

I think you're absolutely correct. If the scriptures shows us anything it shows us the consistency of God and of man.

While I'm still working through the different views, after studying eschatology I'm under the same impression about the Book of Revelation. It is a book of comfort for us.

[HarleyD]

The idea being that human nature and God's nature doesn't change, so things will continue in a similar manner.

I think you're absolutely correct. If the scriptures shows us anything it shows us the consistency of God and of man.

While I'm still working through the different views, after studying eschatology I'm under the same impression about the Book of Revelation. It is a book of comfort for us.

[impactplayer]

Maranatha - My only point regarding your comments is that there really is no longer a Biblical Israel. There is no Temple, thus no path to reconciliation. What we have is a secular nation made up primarily of people of Jewish descent who do not recognize/accept their Messiah. It is the job of Christians to help the find and be found by Messiah. God only knows what will become of them if they do not.

[Pelham]

Far better to use the word “the apocalypse” rather than rapere or rapiemur

That would require ignoring the text.

The author of Thessalonians used ἁρπάζω, harpázō, "carrying away".

He didn't use αποκάλυψη, apocalypse, "revealing" "disclosure".

[Pelham]

“The article is written by a pastor. Perhaps you ought to address him?”

The article was written by a self-described Progressive Christian.

People ought to take a look at what “Progressive Christians” are all about:

https://www.patheos.com/progressive-christian-blogs

https://www.patheos.com/progressive-christian