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To: boatbums
If our works of righteousness, though, are made a condition of salvation

Where do you find Catholicism making "our works of righteousness a condition of salvation"? If, as you said, genuine faith is not alone but will be evident in a changed life" then it follows that a faith NOT evident in a changed life is not genuine, and, as James writes, "such a faith has no power to save". And if you see that, then you agree with us far more than with Luther.

Justification in the Catholic view is fundamentally adoption through grace. You can't earn it at all, ever, period. It can only be given by God as a gift.

17 posted on 01/04/2019 6:52:43 PM PST by Campion ((marine dad))
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To: Campion
**If our works of righteousness, though, are made a condition of salvation**
Where do you find Catholicism making "our works of righteousness a condition of salvation"? If, as you said, genuine faith is not alone but will be evident in a changed life" then it follows that a faith NOT evident in a changed life is not genuine, and, as James writes, "such a faith has no power to save". And if you see that, then you agree with us far more than with Luther.

What do you suppose Pope meant when he said, We are not saved by works alone or by faith alone; they are together. John teaches here that knowing the Lord by living faith is always accompanied by keeping the commandments and walking as Jesus did.?

I'm not arguing against - nor did Luther if you read his writings - that genuine faith is made evident by our walking in obedience. It is certainly what James teaches and does not contradict other verses in Scripture. But the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Catholics will not (usually) express assurance of their salvation, why is that? I know I never did. Is that possibly because you are taught that you must do works to merit eternal life? And that if you have sinned, you must go to confession and be absolved or you won't go to heaven when you die?

That is what I mean by making works a condition of salvation. There isn't really any difference if you say you must do good works to merit your salvation or you must do good works in order to keep your salvation. Either way, your works are made a condition of salvation.

22 posted on 01/04/2019 7:42:15 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy he saved us.)
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To: Campion
If, as you said, genuine faith is not alone but will be evident in a changed life" then it follows that a faith NOT evident in a changed life is not genuine, and, as James writes, "such a faith has no power to save". And if you see that, then you agree with us far more than with Luther.

I was thinking on this some more and wanted to add that your conclusion - "that a faith NOT evident in a changed life is not genuine, and, as James writes, "such a faith has no power to save" - is a misinterpretation I see often from works-based salvation promoters. James does NOT say what you claim - that "such a faith has no power to save". In fact, if you look at that whole chapter of James 2 in context you should see that he is speaking of how others view our professed faith. We know because Scripture tells us that only God can look upon our hearts while men can only look at the outward appearance. God doesn't need to see the good works of anyone in order to judge genuine faith. When James 2:14-18 says:

    What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

We probably know of people who are nice, kind and "good" yet who do not profess to be believers. It's obvious that works do not merit eternal life nor do they necessarily prove a person's inward spiritual condition. No, James cannot and does not contradict Paul's writings - they are both products of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Abraham BELIEVED God and that was what counted him righteous. God declared him righteous long before he proved the genuineness of his faith through his acts. And that is the point. Good works, obedience and holy living show to varying degrees a believer's faith but they do NOT merit salvation in any way. Those who do not have any evidence of repentance in their lives after profession of faith in Jesus Christ should as Scripture says:

    Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test? (II Cor. 13:5)

35 posted on 01/05/2019 1:50:20 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy he saved us.)
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To: Campion
And if you see that, then you agree with us far more than with Luther.

Looks like it's time to play defense again.

I; for one; do NOT 'agree with Luther'.

What I agree with is clear division of the Word of GOD.

If Luther happens to agree with ME; then more power to him!

62 posted on 01/07/2019 5:09:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Campion

Dude, I KNOW you’ve never read Luther at ALL with that comment.

Perhaps you should read Luther’s own words on the subject of faith and works instead of attacking a strawman. Because your statement is exactly what Luther taught and preached.

On the other hand, Catholicism in its own catechism insists that you have to earn salvation by works and you can only get started with ‘adoption by grace.’

It seems that your beliefs are more Lutheran than Catholic.


75 posted on 01/07/2019 7:30:47 AM PST by Luircin
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