Posted on 04/11/2018 8:47:20 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Calvinism affirms a doctrine known as the perseverance of the saints according to which the truly regenerated disciple will persist in faith. In the words of the seventeenth-century Puritan William Secker, "Though Christians be not kept altogether from falling, yet they are kept from falling altogether."
Calvinists insist that perseverance of the saints is a scriptural doctrine. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6: "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
In addition, Calvinists have also often argued that perseverance has a clear pastoral advantage in that it grounds our assurance of salvation in the faithfulness of Christ rather than our own unreliable human wills.
As Exhibit A, the Calvinist might point to the famous Arminian theologian John Wesley. In marked contrast to the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance, Wesley often warned that a saved and regenerated individual could lose their salvation. For example, in one sobering passage, Wesley observes,
"a man that believes now may be an unbeliever some time hence; yea, very possibly tomorrow; but if so, he who is a child of God today, may be a child of the devil tomorrow."
A child of the devil tomorrow? Yikes! It must be admitted that this is a disconcerting thought! Reformed theologian Loraine Boettner drives the point home by asking the Arminian, if he believes this to be true, how can he know that he will persist and so be saved?
"He has seen many of his fellow Christians backslide and perish after making a good start. Why may not he do the same thing?"
The answer to the dilemma, or so Boettner would have us believe, is that the only real hope for assurance comes if we deny Wesley's claim and conclude that the truly saved individual will not ultimately backslide and perish. In the words of Secker, though we are not kept from falling, we are kept from falling altogether.
So here is the question: are Reformed theologians like Boettner correct to suppose that perseverance of the saints provides a superior basis for assurance of salvation? The answer, or so it seems to me, is a resounding no. To be sure, particular individuals may find the doctrine of perseverance more comforting: that, I do not dispute. But as to the core epistemological question of whether one can know they will ultimately be saved, Calvinism offers no advantage.
The reason is this: while Arminianism cannot give you a guarantee that you will be saved tomorrow, Calvinism cannot give you a guarantee that you were ever saved (i.e. of the elect) to begin with. So return to Boettner's statement:
"He has seen many of his fellow Christians backslide and perish after making a good start. Why may not he do the same thing?"
Boettner's point is that there are individuals — we can probably all think of examples — who appeared to be Christians at one time but who later renounced their faith. But this is a common datum shared by Arminians and Calvinists. We are all familiar with such people who rejected a faith they once accepted. With that in mind, in principle, we must recognize the possibility that we could ultimately be counted in their numbers: we too could conceivably reject the faith at some time hence. The question is how we interpret that possible scenario.
The Arminian would interpret that outcome as a matter of an individual once saved coming to lose their faith (1 Timothy 1:19). By contrast, the Calvinist would interpret that outcome instead as a matter of the individual who at one time believed they were saved in fact never having had faith (cf. 1 John 2:19). To sum up, while the Arminian warns that you could be a child of the devil tomorrow, the Calvinist must admit that you could be a child of the devil today!
To conclude, while the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints may offer a particular subjective comfort of assurance for some, it offers no objective advantage over Arminianism as regards an epistemological basis for the assurance of salvation.
So how do we find assurance? We look for spiritual fruit in our lives (Galatians 5:22-23), testing ourselves to see that we are of the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). And as we do, the Spirit testifies to our spirit that we are God's children (Romans 8:16). But those answers are the same whether you are Calvinist or Arminian. Neither of these views offers any special objective advantage as regards the assurance of salvation.
I don’t think our concept of past-present-future enables us to understand how He who created time itself knows and understands. I think it’s an almost unbelievable understatement to say God “knows the future,” because He is the Alpha and Omega, He who is. He is outside of our ability to conceptualize in the sense of our understanding.
Your reply interests me. We have been members of a newer Reformed Baptist church that teaches expositorily. We have struggled with reformed teaching on basis of what foreknowledge means. The way they interpret what you say, which is my husband’s understanding, is that foreknowledge doesn’t mean God knows the person would choose to believe because if so that puts the value in the one who believes. That isn’t possible since no one can choose God. I hope I explained what they say.
If my salvation depended on me, I would not have a secure basis of salvation because I know that I can mess up anything. If my salvation is secured by God, then I have no worries. Because Calvinism holds that salvation is God’s work, not ours, it is the Calvinists who have a solid ground for assurance.
A good example of this that helped me understand is: Imagine in heaven there is a door you enter that on the front of it says: "Whosoever will..." and once you get inside, the other side of the door says: "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world...".
Let me take a stab. Our theology says that God has perfect knowledge, including who, and who will not, follow him, but that does not affect their free will to choose to follow God/ accept Christ as Lord and Savior. All covenants between God and man were initiated by God, but the fulfillment of each specific covenant requires the acceptance by man and living out their obligation under the covenant. Covenants established by God with man started way back in the Old Testament, but Jesus as our way of salvation is the final and perfect covenant.
God does not need man, but he created man in his image because he desired a relationship with man. God would not be glorified if man had no choice but to follow him. But man's relationship with God is fulfilled, and God is glorified, when any man of his own free will chooses to accept salvation offered through the unmerited grace embodied in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. What glory and honor would there be to God if man had no choice in the matter and was compelled to follow based on a predetermined script?
I hope I answered what you were asking.
I find it interesting that Arminianism hasn’t a problem with God choosing the nation of Israel, but do not want to allow Him to choose a New Israel as His people.
Not all Israel was saved, because they did not have the seal of the Holy Spirit that was given when the New Kingdom was ushered in. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
One point about Israel being the "chosen nation"...we shouldn't forget that God didn't choose Israel out of all the other nations like a cosmic eeny-meeny-miney-mo, rather, God chose Abraham who had heard the voice of God and left his homeland in Ur of the Chaldees to go where God led him. It was Abraham to whom God gave the promise that: "and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:18)
From Abraham, there came Isaac, then Jacob - whose name was changed to "Israel" - and then through his twelve sons (the 12 tribes of Israel). The Messiah descended through this lineage and ALL the world has been blessed because, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. .
I can clear up a few things for you regarding 5-point Calvinism.
The Calvin’s you are thinking about are hyper-Calvinists. For an explanation of hyper-Calvinism, google hyper-Calvinism and Philip JOHNSON. He is a Calvinist and explains the errors of the different types of hyper-Calvinism.
He also runs the site www.Surgeon.com
Sturgeon is a Calvinist hero. Go to the part that lists Spurgeon’s sermons and read sermon No. 1516. Hyper-Calvinists don’t like it when you point them to this particular sermon because it destroys their argument related to double predestination.
No, because Calvinism doesn’t save anyone and hence it can offer no assurance of salvation.
However, God does in Scripture.
There’s another way of looking at predestination besides the usual *God picking some to save and the rest to send to hell.
Scripture tells us that those God foreknew, He predestined to be saved.
IOW, He knew before hand who would accept His gift of salvation and then determined that those whoso responded would be given eternal life and He guaranteed it by predestining them to be saved (not go to hell) as opposed to choosing by some fathomless criteria, to save some and damn the rest.
I hope that explained it because it’s another meaning to those very same words and it’s difficult to say*He predestined some to be saved* without people thinking that it means picking and choosing for people instead of giving them the choice, which Scripture is pretty clear he does.
But what did Jesus tell Paul, the lone apostle who was to create and teach the Gentile church??? You guys are lost in the days before the church...And reject what Jesus taught Paul and the church...
Why would you have to repent since God forced you to desire salvation??? You didn't have any choice in the matter...You're a robot...
Interesting to me that you quoted John 3:16, because I am studying the book of John and have just begun chapter 3. What do you believe John means in verse 16, in light of verses 1-15? Is there a need for regeneration before someone will have faith to believe?
Some things are more or less important to each of us. The Ordo Salutis is important to me and brings me to my knees in praise when I contemplate how God worked in my life. I would have never come to Him.
I have seen your posts from time to time and respect you. Thank you for your reply.
The 'elect', 'chosen', or 'saints' stood against the devil when he rebelled. They are those 'predestined' before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) (World means 'age', that Peter describes in IIPeter 3.) First place the results of this rebellion is described is Genesis 1:2. The 'elect' have already demonstrated their love and loyalty to the Creator.
The devil and his disciples, called 'sons of God', in Genesis 6, fallen angels in Jude are the only entities to date have been judged to death. (Isaiah 14:12- and Ezekiel 28:12- describe in detail the sin and judgment Lucifer has already received.)
Hebrews 2:14 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Psalms 22 indicates that those that do not believe in God/ Christ were 'planted' to play a particular role to demonstrate the truth of the Word... However, there is no place that states that high priest that made sure Christ was crucified has been judged to hell. Pharaoh is another such planting.. I suspect that Cain was another planting of the negative role. But again even though we might think some have been condemned to 'hell', it is none of our business, because it is between each individual and the Creator of their soul, to render that final judgment.
Nobody goes unwillingly or in ignorance to the lake of fire... 'hell' and only God will make that judgment.
Really??? So be repulsed then...
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So how does that work with you guys??? God picks you to be saved...God then tells you to repent of your bad stuff so you can actually get saved afterward...What if you don't repent enough??? What if you decide it's too much work on your part???
Or maybe if God picks YOU, you're going to become a saved Christian whether you want to or not??? And God brought your parents together, and their parents and all the parents before them, so they could create the unique you who God chose before the foundation of the world???
I know I'm a born again Christian...I called out to God and he saved me, and before I repented of anything...
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