[daniel1212]

Good on you. The made-up religion takes aspects of Christianity but is not the same What is fascinating is that The word "Jesus" is used more times in the Quran (24 times) than the word "Muhammad" (4 times). "Muhammad" was originally a title meaning "the praise-worthy one" and was not a given name prior to the 7th century. So this was clearly the title given to a person. in fact if you read the times Mohammad is used in the Quran it shows "The praiseworthy one" is only a messenger "The Praiseworthy one" is the messenger of Allah... But those who believe in the revelation sent down to "the praiseworthy one" "The praiseworthy one" is the messenger of Allah The first time one hears of a "muhammad" or the Quran or Islam or Muslim is NOT at the time the Arabs supposedly conquered Egypt and Persia and Syria -- all HIGHLY LITERATE places that wrote down their hsitories. No, you read these words nearly a century later after the Ummayads were overthrown in 750 AD by the Abbassids The first biography of Mohammad is written more than one and a half century after this person allegedly lived. Prior to the "conquest" the Arabic tribes were already "Christian" - but Christian in the same sense that Jehovah Witneses are Christian - they were Gnostics or believed that Jesus was not God or was a lesser God etc etc. And these Arabs lived in the Roman Empire and the Persian Empire The "arabs" in the Hejaz were heterodox, believing in Arabic paganism but also with Gnostics, Nestorians, Ebionites (Jehovahs Witnesses like), Zoroastrians, Buddhists, even Hindus - and they had a large community of Jews - Medina was a Jewish city and 50 years prior to the alleged birth of "Muhammad" you had a Jewish King in Yemen slaughtering Christians and being overthrown by the Christian Axumite (Ethiopian) empire. The Quran has ben re-read in Aramaic - the lingua franca of the middle east from 700 BC to 700 AD and it reads as an Ebionite "Christian" text To me this is clear that Originally there were Ebionite "Christian" converts among the Arabs They believed that Jesus was a prophet and "possessed" by the Holy Spirit (which is why the Koran says that he was abandoned by the Spirit on the cross They absorbed pagan Arab beliefs (the Ka'aba) and Zoroastrian beliefs (Paradise, dualism) and Jewish beliefs (making themselves the chosen people by having the Quran have Ishmael the one to be sacrificed instead of Isaac They emulated the PALMYRENE Empire (remember Palmyra which the Islamic state wanted to destroy? in the 3rd century they created an "Arab" empire that took over much of the Middle East before collapsing to the Romans) and also emulated Roman emperor ELAGABALUS (who was a descendent of the Semitic priest kings of Emesa (Homs) who worshipped a black rock) and took their chance when teh Roma and Sassanid Persian empires nearly collapsed after a 50 year brutal war They were WELCOMED by the Semitic Copts, the Semitic Syrians and by Jews and Samaritans -- why? Because they were fellow semites and they seemed to profess a similar Judeo-Christian monotheistic belief The ummayyads (661 to 750) were secular and are criticised by later Moslems for this - but they don't mention Mohammad, Islam etc - in fact Muawiyah calls himself a "defender of the faith" and has a cross on some of his inscriptions they were still trying to distinguish themselves from the Roman (Orthodox) Christians. Only with the Abbassids do they firmly make themselves Muslim And at the same time you see that the Moslem custom of bowing changes from Mecca to PETRA and ultimately to MECCA -- why? Why wasn't it Mecca from the beginning? Because Jerusalem was the holy city, only later under the Abbasids did they try to make it an exclusively Arab nationalism and chose Mecca, a city that wasn't on any trade-routes or cosmopolitan, hence decidedly ARAB (as opposed to other cities that were influenced by others) To Yulee what is the inscription on the inside of the dome of the rock? . There is no god but God. He is One. He has 2.no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignity and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He has 3.Power over all things. "The praise worthy one" is the servant of God and His Messenger -- this is NOT what is in the Quran -- to Muslims it would be HARAM (evil, wrong) to misquote the Quran. Yet this Ummayyad era mosque DOES it. - and notice if you read M as a title it is clearly referred to the EBIONITE Christian version of Jesus Yes, Jesus was the original, in the Quran referred to "praiseworthy one" - the Mohammad The Mohammad of the Sira is a mix of different Arab warlords ditto for the Hadiths which are heavily contradictory They started out as a heresy of Christianity jsut as the Jehovah's Witnesses are or the Ebionites or Gnostics were, but then added in Arab nationalism and created the idea of their prophet. Their very beliefs are contradictory -- "Allah is all-merciful", yet that means that he is dependent on his creations (how can you be all-merciful if you are just one). Without the concept of a Trinity, the idea of God saying "Let US make man in OUR image" makes no sense. The push back on Mohammadenism must start from this -- [point out that the belief is contradictory, that it is originating as a Christian heresy and fails even religious belief.

Impressive. Thanks

[Cronos]

I believe it is very important to know the details of the religion of Izlam - too often we fall into the tropes of "religion of peace" or other statements

To me it was fascinating:

1. How could the Arabs take over the powerful Roman and Persian Empires, so I read a bit more and found out that
   1. the Persians and Romans ahd put themselves through a bruising 50 year war in which the Persian Shahenshah had conquered Egypt, the Holy Land, Syria etc. just before Emperor Heraclius turned the tables and burned Ctesiphon
   2. The Romans and Persian mostly used Arab intermediaries as their warriors/mercenaries
   3. There were Arab controlled areas in what is now Jordan and Iraq rueld by the Ghassanids and Laxmid tribes - analogous to how the Lombards and Goths carved out kingdoms of their own within the Western Roman Empire
   4. The Arabs were collecting taxes, fighting and providing much fo the administration
   5. But the Persians and Romans lost the ability to pay somewhere in the middle of the 50 year war
   6. The Romans were persecuting the Afro-Asiatic or Semitic Christians as a result of the various Christological controversies, so that even though the majority of christians in Egypt and Syria were Copts and Syriacs respectively (both non-Chalcedonian), the Emperors/Basileus enforced only Chalcedonian Christianity (the Melkites where Melik or Malik means those who follow the "lord" i.e. the Emperor) - making the Egyptians and Syriacs more conducive to being ruled by Semites (Arabs)
   7. The Arabs were more Ebionites (a form of Christianity where Jesus was not quite the same essence as God the Father)
   8. The Persian Shahenshah was pro-Ebionite Christian as his mother was Nestorian and his favorite concubine was ebionite
   9. Jews were distributed heavily in Sassanid lands (60% of the worlds Jews were in Iraq in the 7th century) and in Arabia (Dhu Nawaz a Yemenite king converted to Judaism in the himyarite region and proceeded to persecute Christians before being defeated by the Christian Aksumite kingdom just about 100 years before Mo's alleged birth -- Anyway we know that Jews in the Christian lands were the initial supporters of Islamic invaders (this is NOT to knock present day Jews) - as it was logical - the Christians persecute you, now there comes a group that is strictly monotheistic and look, they bow to Jerusalem (Mohammadens did this until the time of the Abbasids) so they must be a variety of Jews or Jewish-friendly, which they WERE until later in history
2. How come Izlam aggrandizes Mecca when it is not mentioned at all in a highly literate part of the world -- Yemen was called Arabia Felix and the entire coastline was well known as far back as 300 BC, so why do we not hear of this grand cosmopolitan city of Makkah? perhaps its because it was not grand, more like a temple city
   
   
3. Why does the Kaaba resemble the other pagan monuments in Arabia -- the Arabs were fascinated with meteorites and with cubic shapes
   
   
4. Why does the black stone of the ka'aba resemble the black stone of Emesa -- the "god" Elagabal who was worshipped by Elagabalus??
   
   
5. Why was the IS so eager to destroy Palmyra? Was the Palmyrene Semitic (practically ARABIC) brief Empire not a precursor to the Arab empire 300 years later, arising in the same way (Perso-Roman war and Arab intermediaries first fight for both and then take advantage to set up their own empire)
   
   
6. Why does Izlam take the 2000+_ year old story of Abe about to sacrifice Isaac and replace him with Ishmael? Is it not a blatant attempt to create Bedo nationalism?
   
   
7. Why does the Quran say that Jesus was not crucified, but was:
   1. A phantom (mentioned once in the Q)
   2. replaced by Simon of Cyrene
   - both of these are GNOSTIC ideas, the latter mentioned in the gospel of Thomas and the former in other places. Weird
   
   
8. Why is the birth of Christ in the Q look exactly like the book of Apocalypse's story of a birth of a baby?
   
   
9. Why does the Q show clear signs of being edited in Sura 33?
   
   
10. Why does it mention Mo only 5 times and each time uses his name more as a title than as a person?
    
    
11. Why is There not mention of being conquered by Islam or Muslims and no mention of a Mohammad or Islam or Quran until nearly 100 years after the conquests? the Ummayyads are vilified by later Muslims
    
    
12. Why, in a highly literate part of the world do I not see any writing by Copts, by Syriacs, by Sassanid Jews or Christians or by the Romans themselves saying the words "Islam" or Muslim or Mohammad or Quran. Nothing, nada, zilch. Not possible