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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'm pretty sure the Angelic Salutation in Luke #22 counts as documentation.

No it doesn't as has been explained numerous times by reference through the Catholic Encyclopedia Online. For some reason you persist is relying upon this disproven argument which the CE admits is not found in Scripture.

Moreover, I am unaware of any Christian seriously disputing God's preservation of His Mother from the stain of sin, for the first 1500 years of Christian Biblical interpretation.

Aside from the New Testament??

If you can find any such dispute prior to the 16th century, of course, I shall be open to reading and learning.

Questionable as such references have been provided before which you continue to reject.

However....once again I will provide it from a Roman Catholic source which bills itself as "the most comprehensive resource on Catholic teaching, history, and information ever gathered in all of human history."

Evidence from Scripture:

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.

The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel ( Proto-evangelium ), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman : "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically.

ECFs who say Mary was not sinless:

brackets mine added for background

[What this illustrates is a contradiction of Roman Catholic teaching that there was unanimous consent among the ECFs on this issue, and others. To the contrary, the ECFs are all over the place on this, and other issues, near and dear to Rome. It is why "Tradition" is rejected and is not to be equated with Scripture.]

In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.

[the reference to the older fathers is interesting as it indicates the belief of Mary's sinlessness was a later development]

Origen [184/253], although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul ; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt ; and that for her sins also Christ died ( Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").

In the same manner St. Basil [329-379. recognized as a Doctor in the RCC] writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259).

St. Chrysostom [349-407. recognized as a Doctor in the RCC] accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum ( Matthew 12:46 ; Chrysostom, Hom. xliv; cf. also "In Matt.", hom. 4).

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056

Justin Martyr: [100-165]Justin Martyr didn't think Mary was sinless. He refers to every person being a sinner, and he denies that a Jewish opponent he was debating, Trypho, can cite a single person who didn't need to be saved by Christ from sins he had committed. No Roman Catholic could issue such a challenge to Trypho:

"Now, we know that he did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression....For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, 'Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.' And no one has accurately done all, nor will you venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practise idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father's will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God." (Dialogue with Trypho, 88, 95)

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Mary.html#Justin Martyr

Clement of Alexandria [150-215]:

"Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father's will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father's right hand, and with the form of God is God. He is to us a spotless image; to Him we are to try with all our might to assimilate our souls. He is wholly free from human passions; wherefore also He alone is judge, because He alone is sinless. As far, however, as we can, let us try to sin as little as possible. For nothing is so urgent in the first place as deliverance from passions and disorders, and then the checking of our liability to fall into sins that have become habitual. It is best, therefore, not to sin at all in any way, which we assert to be the prerogative of God alone...But He welcomes the repentance of the sinner-loving repentance-which follows sins.

For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless. For to sin is natural and common to all." (The Instructor, 1:2, 3:12)

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Mary.html#Justin Martyr

The Feast of the Immaculate Conception:

The older feast of the Conception of Mary (Conception of St. Anne), which originated in the monasteries of Palestine at least as early as the seventh century, and the modern feast of the Immaculate Conception are not identical in their object. Originally the Church celebrated only the Feast of the Conception of Mary, as she kept the Feast of St. John's conception, not discussing the sinlessness. This feast in the course of centuries became the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, as dogmatical argumentation brought about precise and correct ideas, and as the thesis of the theological schools regarding the preservation of Mary from all stain of original sin gained strength.

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056

Roman Catholicism points to the woman clothed with the sun as being Mary Revelation 12:1.

1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; Rev 12:1 NASB

However, Rev 12:2 is omitted in this discussion.

2and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth Rev 12:2 NASB

If the Roman Catholic wants to say Mary is the New Eve and reference Genesis 3:15 as referring to Mary then the Roman Catholic has to allow Gen 3:16 as also being Mary.

16To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.” Gen 3:16 NASB

In either case, a woman undergoing labor pains is under the curse and is a sinner.

The Roman Catholic is picking and choosing Scripture to support a doctrine not found, nor hinted at, in Scripture. They are practicing eisegesis in this manner.

The belief of Mary's sinlessness was not "handed down" from the original Apostles. It is a false doctrine not supported in Scripture, indeed, it is contradicted by Scripture, that has developed over time.

27 posted on 02/02/2018 2:45:34 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
I remain unconvinced that "full of grace" (Kecharitomene)can be construed as "sinful" or even as compatible with "Sinful".

I wouldn't say that these words alone, "Chaire Kecharitomene," are a sufficient "proof text" for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. I would say, though, that this Angelic Salutation shows that such a dogma is compatible with what is revealed in Scripture.

As for Mary, her spirit rejoices in God her Savior.

31 posted on 02/02/2018 5:11:06 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Chaire, Kecharitomene.)
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