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To: ebb tide; aMorePerfectUnion; Mark17; Lucian; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
So it’s Luther’s “gospel of grace and mercy” behind, apparently, the high disdain for “self-absorbed promethean neopelagianis[ts]” plagued by a “soundness of doctrine” that’s “narcissistic and authoritarian” (EG 94).

Which is absurd. Extrapolating rebellion to authority in general and liberalism from Luther's principled dissent based on Scripture being supreme is no more valid than linking the principled dissent of America's founder to anarchists. The fact is that the NT church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) and recipients of Divine promises of of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

And esteem for Scripture as the wholly inspired authoritative word of God and thus the supreme authority was the most fundamental belief behind the Reformation.

And it has been those who most strongly hold to Scripture as the wholly inspired accurate authoritative word of God who have been the most unified in core beliefs , in contrast to Catholics overall, and thus are treated as enemy #1 one by both liberals and TradCats.

In contrast, liberal churches are those who hold to a liberal view of Scripture, both its accuracy and authority, and tend to be closest to Catholicism, and thus are in need of reformation to be as part of the reformation, which must yet continue.

The mass, prayer, the rosary. These first and last. The world denies their power: it is on their power that Christians must throw all their weight.

As recently explained (once again), in the light of the only inspired and substantive record of what the NT church believed, there are no Catholic priests in the NT church, and thus no Mass , nor praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH), and thus no rosary, which are counterfeit substitutes for what Scripture attests to.

Unlike something like a “Sinner’s Prayer,” expressions of which we do see, if not as a set formula, asking for mercy from God as a damned and destitute sinners, and trust in Him (Luke 18:13; 23:42; cf. Ps. 34:18) or an "Altar Call," which we see in any invitation for meet with God, Joel 2:13-17) PTCBIH is only supported by the principle of prayer for each other in this physical realm.

However, nowhere in Scripture do we see any believers engaging in prayer to created beings in Heaven or instructed to do so, despite the Spirit inspiring the recording of over 200 prayers, and of this being a most basic practice, and despite there always being plenty of created beings to pray to, and occasions for it since the Fall, yet the only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in the spiritual world is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven see therein.

Failing to find even one example of PTCBIH, and with instruction on who to address in prayer to Heaven only being that of to the Lord, thus you must resort to eisegetical extrapolation, presuming those in Heaven can not only hear/understand all prayers from earth, mental or oral (which only God is shown able to do), but that we are to address them, though again the Holy Spirit never mentions even one example of doing so.

Meanwhile, from what I recall, any two-way communication btwn created beings in Heaven and earth required both to somehow be present in the same location, and was not that of asking them to intercede to God for them, and was very rare.

Note that elders and angels offering prayers (Rv. 5:8; 8:4,5) in memorial - like as in Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15; 16:9, "an offering of memorial" cf. Num. 16:9, - is not that of them being addressed in prayer, nor does it indicate that they had heard them previously, nor is it described as being a regular postal service, but it is one of the things which is a preclude to the final judgments upon the earth, testifying to the persecutions of the saints by the devil and world that it fit to be punished. For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

339 posted on 11/30/2017 11:07:59 AM PST by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212
Thanks for your explanation of PTCBIH, and referring me to your post #339 which explained it.

You make a complete case, given your premises; that is, of Sola Scriptura.

That is one of several biggie differences between the Catholics and the Protties.

Part of this difference is that the Catholics all along insisted on hewing to the teachings and history of the Church; the Protestants, as far as I can tell, jumped ship so hard over indulgences, that they decided it was less risky to throw out ALL traditions and reports of visions or visitations, and much of the accrued practices and devotional artwork, in addition to the formalism and (for a time) administrative overhead.

763 posted on 12/02/2017 9:40:33 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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