Posted on 11/27/2017 8:37:19 AM PST by Salvation
Catholics are often unaware just how biblical the Sacred Liturgy is. The design of our traditional churches; the use of candles, incense, and golden vessels; the postures of standing and kneeling; the altar; the singing of hymns; priests wearing albs and so forth are all depicted in the Scriptures. Some of these details were features of the ancient Jewish Temple, but most are reiterated in the Book of Revelation, which describes the liturgy of Heaven.
The liturgy here on earth is modeled after the liturgy in Heaven; that is why it is so serious to tamper with it. The Book of Revelation describes the heavenly liturgy and focuses on a scroll or book that contains the meaning of life and the answers to all we seek. It also focuses on the Lamb of God, standing but with the marks of slaughter upon it. Does this not sound familiar? It is the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
We do well to be aware of the biblical roots of the Sacred Liturgy. Many people consider our rituals to be empty and vain, “smells and bells.” Some think austere liturgical environments devoid of much ritual are “purer” and closer to the worship in “spirit and in truth” that Jesus spoke of in John 4.
To such criticisms we must insist that our rituals, properly understood, are mystical and deeply biblical. Further, they are elements of the heavenly liturgy since almost all of them are mentioned as aspects of the worship or liturgy that takes place in Heaven. In this light, it is a serious mistake to set them aside or have a dismissive attitude toward them.
With that in mind we ought to consider the biblical references to the most common elements of Catholic and Orthodox liturgies. I have added my own occasional note in red.
Candles –
Altar –
Chair –
Priests (elders) in Albs –
Bishop’s miter, priest’s biretta –
Focus on a scroll (book), The Liturgy of the Word –
Incense, Intercessory prayer –
Hymns –
Holy, Holy, Holy –
Prostration (Kneeling) –
Lamb of God –
Acclamations –
Amen! –
Silence –
Mary –
Happy are those called to His “supper” –
Golden vessels, vestments –
Stained Glass –
Here is but a partial list, except for one quote drawn only from the Book of Revelation. I invite you to add to it.
Here is an awesome video with wonderful quotes:
If you studied then you would know but sin has blinded many to the Truth.
If you study harder and repent you will find the Way, of that I am assured.
I have not seen AMPU post ANYTHING here with which I disagree with him.
***
I have quite a bit of disagreement over my friends I’m pinging (well, I know most of them at least) over certain aspects of the faith, mostly involving baptism and communion.
Here’s the difference; we are all focusing on the Word of God and what God says.
Especially this part: The Lord says that salvation comes by grace through faith, not by membership in some church, and not by one specific interpretation of the Word.
So when we argue, I like to think that even when we do, we respect each others’ salvation.
Whereas about half the Catholics I talk to on these subjects on FR (with some pleasant exceptions) will condemn me as a heretic and going to Hell for even the slightest difference, and not even on a difference in the doctrine of salvation.
If you studied then you would know but sin has blinded many to the Truth.
***
And people wonder why FRomans get accused of ad hominem attacks so much.
“I have not seen AMPU post ANYTHING here with which I disagree with him”
Me neither!!
(Thanks sister)
“Especially this part: The Lord says that salvation comes by grace through faith, not by membership in some church, and not by one specific interpretation of the Word.
“So when we argue, I like to think that even when we do, we respect each others’ salvation.
..........
Amen brother.
I already have assurance, Christ in the Eucharist, Seven Sacraments (well five at least), the full armor of God. I have given a reason for my hope. My faith is in the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ Jesus.
If you miss Him and I think you do, you probably know exactly where He is waiting for you to come back for a visit, no one will know, it’s between you and Him.
God Bless
I have, and provided the link which shows what I described in 9 (which you likely misunderstood) and 10. Contextually, it is clear that the body they failed to recognized was the church, by eating independently and to the full while ignoring others, and thus shaming them that have not. Thus Paul stated that they were actually not coming together to eat
the Lord's supper, and thus the solution to the problem was to examine themselves (whether they were acting according to remembering and showing/proclaiming the Lord's death as Paul told them the Lord's supper was to do), and thus wait for each other in order to eat as a body, and not come hungry and do as they had done. And the focus on the body of Christ as the church is what proceeds into the next chapter.
We can get into both cps 10+11 verse by verse if need be,
Also, check out Romans 15:16 for a priestly office.
Offering something to God is not unique to clergy. All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But nowhere are NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distinctive class titled "hiereus" was a later development,
Here's why you have so much angst... you don't understand what you're criticizing. In the Mass, we offer Christ's Body and Blood as an offering of praise and thanksgiving, not as an offering for sins.
Wrong again, it is also a propitiatory sacrifice for sins since:
CCC 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory. "190 [citing Council of Trent] - http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm
the Sacrifice of the Eucharist is offered to God for the expiation of our sins . Because the Sacrifice on Calvary is the same Sacrifice that Christ himself offers in the Mass, the priest offers it to God as the complete satisfaction for man’s sins. -
Uniquely among the sacraments, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice , the sacrifice of Christ himself. Sacrifices offer something up to God to honour him, to thank him, to gain communion with him and to make expiation for sin. - http://www.stjosephsparish.co.uk/index.php/19-our-faith/52-eucharist
“As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead and to obtain spiritual or temporal benefits from God.”
Meaning "One of the ends for which it is offered [The Mass] is the propitiation of God's wrath ." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12775a.htm
God doesn't have to use your glossary to be God.
That is a pitiful recourse. When the Holy Spirit abundantly uses a distinctive word for a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers buy never uses it for NT pastors, then it ought to tell you there is a reason for it, with a distinction being also evidenced elsewhere.
5. and dispensing the Eucharist as spiritual food. Back to 1 & 2 above...
Indeed. Nowhere in the inspired record of what the NT church believed is the Lord's supper presented as spiritual food, nor feeding them this being a unique function of the pastors.
Who instead are exhorted to preach the word, (2 Timothy 4:2) feeding the flock (Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:2) with the word of God, which is what is called spiritual "milk" and "meat" (1 Corinthians 3:2; Hebrews 5:13; 1 Peter 2:2) by which souls obtain spiritual life within themselves, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13) and then by which they are "nourished" (1Timothy 4:6) and built up. (Acts 20:32)
I'll go the opposite way with you. St Paul tells us he brought the Mass with him in his ministry (1 Cor 11) at the instruction of Christ.
Wrong. You are once again reading into Scripture what is not there. Paul nowhere describes the uniquely priestly confected, sacrifice for sins, spiritual food Catholic Mass. Do we need to go thru the only real description of any depth of the Lord's supper in the NT record of how the NT church understood the gospels?
The fact that we know the Eucharist to be practiced in the Church and to not be an object of correction actually shows it more powerfully to be central to worship.
What are you talking about? "Powerfully to be central to worship?" Rather than how Scripture would read if Rome wrote it and described herself, their is only one manifest description of the Lord's supper in Acts thru Rev, with possible references being simply breaking of bread in Acts and "feast of charity" in Jude 1:12. And in 1Co. it is indeed an object of correction, as described.
What did Christ offer at the Last Supper? When you answer that, you will answer what the Apostles carried forward in their commission.
I'm not dignifying 8 and 9...
Meaning you do not like what the fact that believers are described as breaking bread, with no Catholic priests, nor even NT clergy necessarily conducting it, and having fellowship with Christ and each other like as pagans have fellowship with the object of their dedicatory feasts in taking part in such. Meaning the significance was the same, which is why Paul used it. The Lord's supper was " the communion of the blood of Christ" and "the communion of the body of Christ. For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. " (1 Corinthians 10:16-17)
Likewise, "the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Corinthians 10:20-21)
In both cases fellowship is being made with the object of the dedicatory feasts, and with each other. Which corresponds to the next chapter in which the Corinthians were not coming together to eat the Lord's supper because they were selfishly ignoring others while supposedly remembering the Lord's unselfish death for them (Lord have mercy on me)! The reason why the Corinthians were not coming together to eat the Lord's supper was not because of any failure to recognize the nature of the elements, but the nature of the church in relation to what they were supped to be remembering, and showing.
Even the notes in your own NAB have this part right, apart from "repeat his sacrifice:"
The self-testing required for proper eating involves discerning the body (1 Cor 11:29), which, from the context, must mean understanding the sense of Jesus’ death (1 Cor 11:26), perceiving the imperative to unity that follows from the fact that Jesus gives himself to all and requires us to repeat his sacrifice in the same spirit (1 Cor 11:18–25). - http://usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/11
The Church is the Body of Christ... through the Marriage Feast of the Lamb... His Sacrifice on the Cross. We don't engage in roll-playing with a eucharistic celebration of a communal meal. We are united to Christ as one Body in the Church Who partakes of Him fully; Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We are united with Him at all times in all places in one Body as the Church presents this Marriage Feast to all the faithful until the end of time.
Which blurb is contrary to reality which is an illustration of the very problem 1Co. 11:17-34 teaches. God actually engages in role-playing (if not roll-playing) by so identifying Himself with the church as His body that the writer of 1Co. was charged with persecuting Christ, and which body Paul states He bought with His own blood. (Acts 20:28) And tells the Corinthians they are to remember His death and show it by the Lord's supper, which they were not doing with their focus on eating.
Which as a former weekly Mass-going RC, lector and CDD teacher is what I saw in my may years there, which rather than a real communal meal of sharing, the focus was on getting the wafer, with minimal horizontal sense of community of heart, warmth and care (most soon rushed), let alone evangelical fellowship of the Spirit. Professions of "We are united to Christ as one Body in the Church Who partakes of Him fully; Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity" is a poor substitute, and would make the Eucharist false advertising if it was regulated as health food.
Get over yourself and learn something.
Typical arrogance in the light of the absence of just what i warned would be exposed.
Which makes no sense because that one event happened IN space and time and is over and done with and what is currently happening now, outside of space and time, is NOT Jesus Christ being continually slain, but Him seated at the right hand of the Father, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool, all the while making intercession for us born again, born from above, believers.
Jesus in heaven
Acts 2:32-36 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 1:15-23 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Hebrews 9:11-17 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:8-14 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:15-18 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
But they also condemn other RCs: the traditionalists put down the Francis validators and some of the latter put down former as Protestants. Then you have divisions withing the dividers.
Concerning which one priest has the gift of poetry in describing the conflict:
The following dialogue is purportedly written by Bishop Williamson. I have no idea if that is true. But whatever of that, it is an informative exposition of the debate within the SSPX.
SL = SSPX soft-liner. HL = SSPX hard-liner.
SL Outside the Church is not where we should be!
HL Who left the Church? Vatican II! Not we!
SL Once in the Church, we could do so much more!
HL If we detested error, as before.
SL Why should we stop detesting error, pray?
HL Because we would be joining in their fray.
SL We need to live within the Church’s law.
HL Not if it is not serving God any more.
SL The Catholic Church is visible. We’re not there.
HL The Church is holy. Do we see that? Where?
SL But things have changed since the Archbishop’s day.
HL The modernists still hold exclusive sway.
SL What Rome now offers, he would have approved.
HL Never, once Benedict to Assisi moved!
SL The SSPX stands strong, need fear no fall.
HL Let all who stand fear falling, says St. Paul.
SL But our Superiors have grace of state.
HL Did leading churchmen never prevaricate?
SL Our leaders to the SSPX belong!
HL And does that mean they never can do wrong?
SL But, Pre-condition One, Rome freed the Mass.
HL And left in place the “bastard rite”, so crass.
SL Rome also lifted the ban on bishops four.
HL But did that make them more free than before?
SL Yet Benedict is calling for our aid.
HL To make Truth prosper, or to help it fade?
SL Of harming Truth, how can the Pope be accused?
HL His modernist mind is hopelessly confused.
SL Yet truly, Benedict wants us all back in.
HL As a modernist, yes, but modernism is a sin.
SL Then do you still believe that he is Pope?
HL Yes, but we must for his conversion hope.
SL What can you mean by, “As a modernist, yes”?
HL Our true Faith he can only harm, not bless.
SL Our welfare is his genuine concern.
HL Not our true welfare, if our true Faith he spurn.
SL A lack of supernatural spirit you show!
HL If woe I say there is, where there is woe?
SL Not everything in the Church is gloomy, dark!
HL Where do you see of true revival a spark?
SL A movement towards Tradition is under way!
HL While fully in control the modernists stay?
SL Then is the official Church still God’s own Church?
HL Yes, it’s the churchmen left us in the lurch.
SL But surely Pope and Rome have both meant well.
HL So? – “Good intentions pave the way to Hell.”
SL But evils worse that Vatican Two can be.
HL The Archbishop – remember? – called it World War III.
SL You’re harsh. Your attitude to schism will lead.
HL Better than undermine the entire creed!
SL Not all the Church authorities are bad.
HL The good ones have no power. It’s very sad.
SL Priests should not say, authority is untrue.
HL But bishops were the cause of Vatican II!
SL Still, Catholic instincts seek their Catholic home.
HL Today, for Catholics, that’s no longer Rome.
SL Then where is the Church? Just in Tradition? Where?
HL “One, holy, catholic, apostolic” – there.
SL You want to solve this problem overnight!
HL No, just that a start be made to set it right.
SL We trust in God. We trust in his Sacred Heart.
HL Bravo! But humans too must play their part.
SL That part is not for us just to complain.
HL Tradcats work hard, Tradition to maintain.
SL If we went in with Rome, we could turn back.
HL No. More and more we’d follow in Rome’s track.
SL Why stop the Romans making restitution?
HL Because they’re set upon our destitution.
SL Back in the mainstream Church we’d set to work!
HL Rather we’d lose our way in all their murk.
SL But we are strong, with bishops one and three.
HL Alas, the three with the one do not agree.
SL We’re firm in the Faith. Modernists are no threat!
HL We’d easily slide. You want to take a bet?
SL Strong in the Faith, we can afford to agree!
HL But that Faith says, from heretics to flee.
SL But Gott mit uns! We are the SSPX!
HL Not if we choose to ignore all prudent checks.
SL Were we approved, Romans would learn from us!
HL O Heavens, no! They’d throw us under the bus.
SL Were we approved, the earth of Rome could quake.
HL But not before to pieces we would shake.
SL Our leader has graces of state. We must obey.
HL Was Paul the Sixth given graces to betray?
SL Rome is now weak, meaning, we could stay strong.
HL For right, Rome’s feeble. Mighty it is for wrong.
SL So what’s the answer, if you’re always right?
How can the Church be rescued from its plight?
HL The Church belongs to God. In his good time
We’ll see his answer, stunning and sublime.
Till then we grieve, and thirst for right, and trust.
That which we cannot cure, endure we must.
From error and the erring stay away,
Even while for their immortal souls we pray.
And tell God’s truth, however few will hear –
As close as the nearest door, his help is near.
Posted by Fr John on May 11, 2012 in Culture, Current affairs, Liturgy | 23 comments www.boacp.com/tag/sspx/
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
The Catholic Church seems to me to be an attempt to bring about the authoritarian, works orientated worship of The Old Testament into The New Testament, with a Christian twist. Moses brought the law, but Jesus Christ brought grace and truth. I don’t need to go back under a law orientated worship style.
ampu IS home. He is right now seated in heaven with Chrsist Jesus.
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
You know you want to, what’s standing in your way?
Mind reading much?
“My faith is in the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ Jesus.”
Salvation is in Christ alone and not in any church or sacrament.
I cannot miss Him I have, a Him I’m sealed to, Him who I am seated next to in the Heavenlies.
I would never trade Him and eternal life in His presence for paganism and worldly religious systems.
It actually is in direct disobedience and defiance to the command of the Holy Spirit given us through the apostle Paul.
1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:5-9 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
“The Catholic Church seems to me to be an attempt to bring about the authoritarian, works orientated worship of The Old Testament into The New Testament, with a Christian twist. ”
You are correct, but add to that perversion, pagan practices incorporated from Rome and Greece.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 2:1-16 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
What? Are you a modalist now?
Heck, the Catholics on this forum have also been known to condemn each other to hell.
For some even other Catholics are not good enough.
Being Catholic is no guarantee of not being criticized or condemned by other Catholics.
Just ask Pope Frank.
And my faith is in Christ, who died for me.
You go ahead and trust a church, which can't help you.
I and AMPU and others will trust the risen and glorified Lord of Glory who alone has the power and authority to save.
Paul identifies who the Rock is for us.
Peter – rock
Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm
Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.
Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).
“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.
4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.
There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.
Also, here, Paul identifies who petra is, and that is Christ. This link takes you to the Greek.
http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-4.htm
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and the Rock (petra) was Christ.
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm
1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.
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