The Biblical Roots of the [Catholic] Liturgy

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 11-26-17 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[ealgeone]

Sorry I don't have a complete list of millions of South Americans who left Rome to come to Christ and gain eternal life. Fortunately, God has the Official List.

Was thinking about the same thing.

To that I'm sure we could add the names of those in Africa and elsewhere.

[infool7]

Yeah, those Irish don't always pray right.

Mighty broad brush ya got there.

[ealgeone]

Your links aren’t working.

[ealgeone]

>>I don't personally have a rote prayer I say every night. Sometimes I will say the Lord's Prayer.<<

Ok... WHEN you pray the Lord's Prayer, what do you say?

The Lord's Prayer.

[daniel1212]

They mean exactly what you say they mean. Forgive the Church for the impertinence of the last 2,000 years, your holiness Pope aMorePerfectUnion.,..Christ desired that we be one in Faith. There is no unity among those who claim personal authority over Scripture understanding. Why don't you read some of the Doctors of the Church and discover some humility.

Then were or where have you been on countless threads by traditional RCs (who seem to be the vocal majority on FR ) dismissing some many modern teachings and even popes, all based upon their understanding of what valid church teaching is and says.

As one poster wryly stated,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. ” Nathan, http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html

And it is actually me who shows them, as just a few hours ago on FR , such teachings as that,

..the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

Either RCs are to ascertain the validity of church teaching by examination of the evidential warrant for it being so, or they are not to, and since even determining what magisterial level each teaching falls under to subject to interpretation, then they are to "give your religious assent of intellect and will to Catholic doctrine, whether it is infallible or not. That's what our Dogmatic Constitution on the Church demands, that's what the Code of Canon Laws demand, and that is what the Catechism itself demands. Heb 13:17 teaches us to "obey your leaders and submit to them." This submission is not contingent upon inerrancy or infallibility."

Which was in response to a bewildered member on the different magisterial levels and assent, saying "Boy. No disrespect intended...and I mean that honestly...but my head spins trying to comprehend the various classifications of Catholic teaching and the respective degrees of certainty attached thereto." - http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=1565864#post1565864

But the position of "just obey Catholic doctrine" itself sees debate, while Rome manifestly treats impenitent proabortion, prosodomite pols as a members in life and in death, thus showing her interpretation of what believes, at least for now.

Meanwhile it is actually those who hold most strongly to the authoiruity of Scripture who testify to the strongest unity in basic beliefs, versus Caths, with some unity in basic beliefs being they profess themselves.

And in Scripture it is what one does and effects that constitutes the evidence of what they really believe. (Mt. 7:20; 1Co. 4:19,20; Ja. 2:18)

Thus while the likes of you may present a unified Rome, on closer examination the reality is that she is an implicitly sanctioned amalgamation of quite varied beliefs, from cultic traditionalists to Ted Kennedy RCs, all counted as members by mother Rome. And yet they want us conservative evangelicals to leave our worship, teaching and fellowships and become members with them. Absurd.

[daniel1212]

To be deep in the Scriptures is to cease to be Roman Catholic.

Indeed, and history much reveals the contrast.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Aw, NKP, thank you. Very considerate.

And here is a wonderful article about Catholic Priests who came to Christ and left Rome. It is fascinating to hear their stories. Unfortunately, there are only 7, but there are 50 in the book, which you can get on Amazon to help your spiritual journey.

Testimonies from ex-Roman Catholic Priests

by Matt Slick

The following quotes are taken from the book by Richard Bennet, Far from Rome, Near to God: Testimonies of 50 Converted Roman Catholic Priests, Carlisle, PN: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1997.  They are quite interesting and valuable since they give an insight to Catholicism from those who were priests in the Catholic Church and then left it to find salvation in Jesus.

Following are excerpts from only a few of the fifty testimonies in the book:

1. Henry Gregory Adams.  Born in Saskatchewan, Canada. He entered the Basilian Order of monks and adopted the monastic name of "Saint Hilarion the Great."  He was ordained as a priest and served five parishes in the Lemont, Alberta area. 
   
   1. Sacraments.  "The monastic life and the sacraments prescribed by the Roman Catholic Church did not help me to come to know Christ personally and find salvation . . . I realized that the man-made sacraments of my church and my good works were in vain for salvation.  They lead to a false security." (p. 3)
2. Joseph Tremblay.  Born in Quebec, Canada, 1924.  He was ordained a priest in Rome, Italy and was sent to Bolivia, Chile where he served for 13 years "as a missionary in the congregation of the Oblate Fathers of Mary Immaculate."
   
   1. Salvation by works.  "My theology has taught me that salvation is by works and sacrifices . . . my theology gives me no assurance of salvation; the Bible offers me that assurance . . . I had been trying to save myself on my works . . . I was stifled in a setting in which I was pushed to do good works to merit my salvation." (pp. 9, 11-12)
3. Bartholomew F. Brewer.  He applied to the Discalced Carmelites, a strict monastic order.  He received training of "four years of high school seminary, two years in the novitiate, three years of philosophy, and four years of theology (the last after ordination)."  He was ordained to the Roman Catholic priesthood at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in Washington, D.C.  He eventually served as a diocesan priest in San Diego, California and entered the Navy as a Roman Catholic chaplain. 
   
   1. Upon questioning Rome's Beliefs, "At first I did not understand, but gradually I observed a wonderful change in mother.  Her influence helped me realize the importance of the Bible in determining what we believe.  We often discussed subjects such as the primacy of Peter, papal infallibility, the priesthood, infant baptism, confession, the mass, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven.  In time I realized that not only are these beliefs not in the Bible, they are actually contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture." (pp. 21-22)
   2. Relying on works.  He left the Roman Catholic Church, got married and through conversations with his wife and other Christians, "I finally understood that I had been relying on my own righteousness and religious efforts and not upon the completed and sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  The Roman Catholic religion had never taught me that our own righteousness is fleshly and not acceptable to God, nor that we need to trust in his righteousness alone . . . during all those years of monastic life I had relied on the sacraments of Rome to give me grace, to save me." (p. 25)
4. Hugh Farrell.  Born in Denver, Colorado.  Entered the Order of our Lady of Mount Carmel, commonly called the Discalced Carmelite Fathers.  Ordained as a priest.
   
   1. Priestly power to change elements:  "The priest, according to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, has the power to take ordinary bread and wine, and, by pronouncing the words of the consecration prayer in the sacrifice of the Mass, to change it into the actual body and blood and soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.  Hence, since one cannot separate the human nature of Christ from his divinity, the bread and wine, after being changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, are entitled to the worship of adoration." (pp. 28)
   2. Temporal punishment due to sins. "I knew from the teachings of the priests and nuns that I could not hope to go directly to heaven after my death.  My Roman Catholic catechism taught me that after death I had to pay for the temporal punishment due to my sins.  The Roman Catholic Church teaches that 'the souls of the just which, in a moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sin, enter purgatory.'" (p. 29)
   3. Penance.  Regarding life in the monastery and doing penance.  "These penances consist of standing with the arms outstretched to form a cross, kissing the sandaled feet of the monks, receiving a blow upon the face from the monks, and, at the end of the meal, lying prostrate before the entrance to the refectory so that the departing monks must step over one's body.  These, and other penances, are supposed to gain one merit in heaven and increase one's 'spiritual bank account.'" (p. 36)
   4. The Mass and sorcery.  "According to the teaching of the Roman Church the priest, no matter how unworthy he may personally be, even if he has just made a pact with the devil for his soul, has the power to change the elements of bread and wine into the actual body and blood, soul and divinity, of Jesus Christ.  Provided he pronounces the words of consecration properly and has the intention of consecrating, God must come down on the altar and enter and take over the elements." (p. 39)
5. Alexander Carson.  Baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as an infant.  His priesthood studies were at St. John's seminary, Brighton, Massachusetts.  He was ordained by Bishop Lawrence Shehan of Bridgeport, Connecticut in 1955 and was a priest in Alexandria, Louisiana.  Also, he was pastor of Sacred Heart Catholic Church, Rayville, Louisiana.
   1. Bible or Tradition.  " . . . the Holy Spirit led me to judge Roman Catholic theology by the standard of the Bible.  Previously, I had always judged the Bible by Roman Catholic doctrine and theology." (p. 53)
   2. Mass contrary to scripture.  "In my letter of resignation from the Roman Catholic Church and Ministry, I stated to the bishop that I was leaving the priesthood because I could no longer offer the Mass, as it was contrary to the Word of God and to my conscience." (pp. 54-55)
6. Charles Berry.   He entered the Order of Hermits of St. Augustine and became a priest after 17 years.  He was given orders to continue studying until he achieved a Ph.D. in chemistry and was then "transferred to the headquarters of the Augustinian order in the United States."
   
   1. Superstition.  "In the United States the Roman Catholic Church is on its best behavior, putting its best foot forward because of its critics and opponents.  In a Roman Catholic country, where it has few opponents or critics, it is a very different matter.  Ignorance and superstition and idolatry are everywhere, and little effort, if any, is made to change the situation.  Instead of following the Christianity taught in the Bible the people concentrate on the worship of statues and their local patron saints." (p. 59)
   2. Idols and Statues.  "When I met in Cuba a genuine pagan who worshiped idols (a religion transplanted from Africa by his ancestors), I asked how he could believe that a plaster idol could help him.  He replied that the idol was not expected to help him; it only represented the power in heaven which could.  What horrified me about his reply was that it was almost word for word the explanation Roman Catholics give for rendering honor to the statues of the saints." (p. 59)
7. Bob Bush.  He went to a Jesuit Seminary and studied for 13 years before being ordained in 1966.  He entered a post graduate program in Rome.
   
   1. Works:  "When I entered the order, the first thing that happened was that I was told I had to keep all the rules and regulations, that to do so would be pleasing to God, and that this was what he wanted for me.  We were taught the motto, 'Keep the rule and the rule will keep you.'" (p. 66).
   2. Salvation is by faith:  "It took me many years to realize that I was compromising by staying in the Roman Catholic Church.  Throughout all those years I continued to stress that salvation is only in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and not in the infant baptism; that there is only one source of authority which is the Bible, the word of God; and that there is no purgatory but rather that when we die to either go to heaven or hell."  (p. 69)
   3. Salvation by works:  "The Roman Catholic Church then goes on to say that in order to be saved you must keep its laws, rules and regulations.  And in these laws are violated (for example, laws concerning birth control or fasting or attendance at Mass every Sunday), then you have committed a sin . . . 'individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the only ordinary way by which the faithful person who was aware of serious sin can be reconciled with God, and with the church' (Canon 9609)." (p. 75)
   4. Works: "The Roman Catholic Church adds works, and that you have to do these specific things [keeping its laws, rule and regulations] ]in order to be saved, whereas the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is by grace that we are saved, not by works." (pp. 75-76)

As you can see, even Roman Catholic Priests can discover the truth found in God's word and escape the error of the Roman Catholic system of works righteousness.  To God be the glory.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9).

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Mighty broad brush ya got there.

Actually narrow. It is an Irish Prayer and wonderful humor.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Here is the link I found the 7 Catholic Priest testimonies at...

https://carm.org/testimonies-ex-roman-catholic-priests

[ealgeone]

According to Scripture, the Church—not the Bible alone—is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith and discipline.

14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:14-17 NASB

But isn’t it also telling that since the Reformation of just ca. 480 years ago—a reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle—there are now over 33,000 denominations that have derived from it?

That Roman Catholics continue to post the discredited 30,000 denominations argument is sad.

Isn't it telling there are some V2 Roman Catholics and some V1 Roman Catholics.

Some Roman Catholics don't believe the current pope is legit and there is one who posts every negative article about the pope. Ya'll sure you're united??

There are some who only believe in the Latin Mass v the English Mass.

When we have discussions on these threads we see varied opinions in just the handful of Roman Catholics on these threads. One Roman Catholic says the Pope isn't selected by the Holy Spirit. Others say he was.

I'm sure we could dig up more differences among Roman Catholics if we took the time.

[NKP_Vet]

The biggest reason men leave the Catholic priesthood is to get married.

[infool7]

Of course you don’t, I was merely debunking your absurd claim.

Why don’t you come home?

You know you want to, what’s standing in your way?

Consider it for just one moment.

Hopefully we will both be on His Official List.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

The biggest reason men leave the Catholic priesthood is to get married.

This is an assertion with no evidence brought forth. Do you have any?

Why do you doubt the testimony of Catholic Priests who tell you why they left, instead of believing what you will?

[ealgeone]

The biggest reason men leave the Catholic priesthood is to get married.

The Roman Catholic requirement of celibacy of the priests is not a NT position.

It also gives excellent cover to those who are homosexual to be a priest...no explanation as to why you're not married!

[infool7]

Oops

It’s just wikipedia. They are all here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_the_Catholic_Church

[infool7]

You can find the live links here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_the_Catholic_Church

[ealgeone]

Yes. I've seen the list before. If it is meant to impress someone recall in the NT some of the smartest, best educated individuals ignored Christ and had Him put to death.

Fame means nothing to God...in many cases, He seems to pick the least to do His work.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Why don’t you come home? You know you want to, what’s standing in your way?

Oh, I do, I do. In the same way that I want to get back the Subaru station wagon that never worked and overheated...

Seriously, I left when I came to know CHRIST and He opened my eyes to the Scriptures.

I found salvation in Him
Eternal life
Assurance of Salvation
Peace from silly works that do not save and your Hamster Wheel of Guilt
The indwelling Spirit to guide and pray for me
Positioned as seated in the heavenlies with Christ
Gained an amazing inheritance
Became the Righteousness of Christ
and so, so much more.

I lost nothing except a pagan religion and gained everything in Him.

Sorry, no sale.

Do you know that you have eternal life?

Do you have assurance of your salvation?

If not, why? Why do you reject what God's Word teaches?

[ealgeone]

Your story from Catholicism to Christianity is typical of what I've seen others who've become Christians.

As Roman Catholics they found comfort in a denomination. Rarely do they say they came to know Christ.

Of those who've converted to Roman Catholicism rarely do you hear they have a relationship with Christ...it's about the Church and/or Mary.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Of those who've converted to Roman Catholicism rarely do you hear they have a relationship with Christ...it's about the Church and/or Mary.

+1