Posted on 11/27/2017 8:37:19 AM PST by Salvation
Catholics are often unaware just how biblical the Sacred Liturgy is. The design of our traditional churches; the use of candles, incense, and golden vessels; the postures of standing and kneeling; the altar; the singing of hymns; priests wearing albs and so forth are all depicted in the Scriptures. Some of these details were features of the ancient Jewish Temple, but most are reiterated in the Book of Revelation, which describes the liturgy of Heaven.
The liturgy here on earth is modeled after the liturgy in Heaven; that is why it is so serious to tamper with it. The Book of Revelation describes the heavenly liturgy and focuses on a scroll or book that contains the meaning of life and the answers to all we seek. It also focuses on the Lamb of God, standing but with the marks of slaughter upon it. Does this not sound familiar? It is the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
We do well to be aware of the biblical roots of the Sacred Liturgy. Many people consider our rituals to be empty and vain, smells and bells. Some think austere liturgical environments devoid of much ritual are purer and closer to the worship in spirit and in truth that Jesus spoke of in John 4.
To such criticisms we must insist that our rituals, properly understood, are mystical and deeply biblical. Further, they are elements of the heavenly liturgy since almost all of them are mentioned as aspects of the worship or liturgy that takes place in Heaven. In this light, it is a serious mistake to set them aside or have a dismissive attitude toward them.
With that in mind we ought to consider the biblical references to the most common elements of Catholic and Orthodox liturgies. I have added my own occasional note in red.
Candles
Altar
Chair
Priests (elders) in Albs
Bishops miter, priests biretta
Focus on a scroll (book), The Liturgy of the Word
Incense, Intercessory prayer
Hymns
Holy, Holy, Holy
Prostration (Kneeling)
Lamb of God
Acclamations
Amen!
Silence
Mary
Happy are those called to His supper
Golden vessels, vestments
Stained Glass
Here is but a partial list, except for one quote drawn only from the Book of Revelation. I invite you to add to it.
Here is an awesome video with wonderful quotes:
They mean exactly what you say they mean. Forgive the Church for the impertinence of the last 2,000 years, your holiness Pope aMorePerfectUnion.
Can you not see the arrogance in your own argument? You make yourself the authority you believe no one else can claim. If Scripture is so self-interpreting, please explain the fractalization of the Protestant world who, generally, rely on Sola Scriptura...
Acts 8:30-31 & 2 Peter 1:20
Christ desired that we be one in Faith. There is no unity among those who claim personal authority over Scripture understanding. Why don't you read some of the Doctors of the Church and discover some humility.
Which one?
The "Doctors of the Church" are often contradictory in their positions on the issues near and dear to Roman Catholicism.
What theological scholars who walked and talked with Christ are you referring to on the issue at contention?
all other scholars and non scholars who have read scripture and been to school for it, over two thousand years or so, have all been wrong, and God has only spoken to you with the real truth of what His word means.... Why are you engaging in a logical fallacy of presuming you know what all other scholars and non scholars believed on this subject?
What source tells me what they all wrote on this subject? If you cannot provide such, how can you say that all concurred with your position?
Also, why must Scripture be so murky that it takes a scholar to see what the NT church believed on this subject? Can a very small minority of common folk be correct on what is from God and its meaning versus learned men?
Moreover, would not your position on assurance of truth be that an assuredly infallible authority (outside Scripture) is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority?
Vatican I or Vatican II?
The Roman Catholic Church has not produced an exegetical rendering of every verse in the NT...and as some claim they've been around 2000 years. That's a long time not to produce a verse by verse exegetical rendering of the NT.
Don't keep us in suspense... please cite your work.
Actually the burden is on the Roman Catholic to prove their point. The RCC claims the ECFs are unanimous in their positions. The burden is upon them to prove this.
In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.
Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul ; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt ; and that for her sins also Christ died ( Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").
In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259). St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum ( Matthew 12:46 ; Chrysostom, Hom. xliv; cf. also "In Matt.", hom. 4).
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056
again, all the many staunch catholics/martyrs/theologians, down thru the centuries, had no clue about the scriptures, and we were all in the dark until eagleone and AMPU happened on the scene to set us all straight...
Is your position that poor that you must you resort to misrepresenting what others have said? Then you have already marginalized yourself. Or have your combatants actually said that all the many staunch Catholics/martyrs/theologians, down thru the centuries, had no clue about the scriptures, versus that the ones we have writings from on this subject are wrong?
those who walked and talked with Christ and his successors, hundreds of years before the catholic church put together the very scriptures they declare themselves experts and the only experts on, are to be cast aside as misreading, misinterpreting, or under a delusion of evil...as only certain folks can read scripture, and only these two, and perhaps others, have been the only ones in 2000 years to ask God to come into their hearts so that they truly understand his word.
Which is more of your sophistical strawman from what I see. If disagreeing on this issue what some ancients wrote on this subject means only these two, and perhaps others, have been the only ones in 2000 years to ask God to come into their hearts so that they truly understand his word, then they would indeed by part of cult. Instead, you look dishonest and desperate.
You make yourself the authority you believe no one else can claim.
False two times in one sentence.
Gods Word is the authority, or it wouldnt matter if Arch-Pope tried to find a Biblical basis for the mass. Second, according to the scriptures, God gave teachers to the church to teach a His Word.
If Scripture is so self-interpreting, please explain the fractalization of the Protestant world who, generally, rely on Sola Scriptura.
Your question falsely conflates Sola Scriptura (the belief that Scripture contains everything needed for salvation and Christian maturity) with agreement over everything contained in Scripture by all people in all times.
I point out two things to you...
First, Roman Catholicism has never produced an official commentary that explains the meaning of every verse in Scripture. In 2,000 years!
Second, believing Christians who worship with non-Roman assemblies agree on the core doctrines with uniformity, while acting with charity on non-essential areas.
And again I never claimed Scripture is self-interpreting, nor does God. He gave teachers to His church to teach the Scriptures. Peter himself said some of the Apostle Pauls writings were hard to understand, as are the other scriptures.
What someone needs to understand to gain eternal life can be easily understood by a child who can read.
O please Sal, we have been thru these denials before, and though I do not know the heart of all, neither do you, but based on how Scripture describes worship, the broad denial that Catholics do NOT worship Mary by what they can do as sanctioned by their church have been shown to be playing word games. .
Could your information possibly be mistaken?
That question is for you.
One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.
Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?
Which manner of "adulation" would constitute worship in Scripture (Words for worship in the NT), yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.
And despite the Spirit inspiring the recording of about 200 prayers in the Bible, and of this being a most basic practice, the only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in Heaven is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven see therein, by souls who were as adamant as many Catholics in defending their blasphemous practice:
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)
A rose by any other name.
1. conducted by a Catholic priest (+ see #4);
2. with this being a unique function of such;
Read through 1 Cor 11 again carefully to see what St Paul brought and how special it is. Also, check out Romans 15:16 for a priestly office.
3. and him offering it as a sacrifice for sins;
Here's why you have so much angst... you don't understand what you're criticizing. In the Mass, we offer Christ's Body and Blood as an offering of praise and thanksgiving, not as an offering for sins.
4. and thus with the distinctive word used for a separate sacerdotal class of believers being used for them;
God doesn't have to use your glossary to be God.
5. and dispensing the Eucharist as spiritual food.
Back to 1 & 2 above...
6. with this priestly performance and partaking being the preeminent prominent practice of the NT church;
I'll go the opposite way with you. St Paul tells us he brought the Mass with him in his ministry (1 Cor 11) at the instruction of Christ. An honest reading of the Epistles shows them to be letters of correction from the Apostles to the churches... some with encouragement... some with reproof. The fact that we know the Eucharist to be practiced in the Church and to not be an object of correction actually shows it more powerfully to be central to worship. The Eucharist is what the churches had in common. It was not an area to be taught in Epistles... except where St Paul reinforced it. See also 1 Cor 10:16
7. with this being the partaking of a wafer of bread and sip of wine, and the focus being on receiving this as essential food;
What did Christ offer at the Last Supper? When you answer that, you will answer what the Apostles carried forward in their commission.
I'm not dignifying 8 and 9...
with the focus being on the church as the body of Christ, showing the Lord's death and union with Him and those He bought with His sinless shed blood, by sharing food in a communal meal.
The Church is the Body of Christ... through the Marriage Feast of the Lamb... His Sacrifice on the Cross. We don't engage in roll-playing with a eucharistic celebration of a communal meal. We are united to Christ as one Body in the Church Who partakes of Him fully; Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We are united with Him at all times in all places in one Body as the Church presents this Marriage Feast to all the faithful until the end of time.
When you fail to find 1 -7 please do not read into Scripture what is not there as such has been and can be exposed, by God's grace.
Get over yourself and learn something.
The reason so many Catholic apologists are former Protestants is simple. Most were very familiar with scripture and through many hours, days and sometimes years they wanted the fullness of the Christian faith and could not continue living a lie. They became Catholic. They are also hated with a passion by some Protestants who cant get it through their thick skulls that someone would actually become Catholic. Its kind of funny and sad for the same reasons.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20505525-jimmy-swaggart-made-me-catholic
Tim Staples’ conversion story from Assemblies of God youth minister to Catholic is fascinating! I learn so much about how others view the Catholic faith from converts and admire their love for Jesus. There are still so many misconceptions that Protestants and non-believers have. Staples’ is now head apologist at Catholic Answers. He must have a nearly photographic memory; I am always so impressed at his recall of book, chapter and verse when he responds to callers on the Catholic Answers radio show, Catholic Answers Live (on daily from 6:00 to 7:00 ET).
As with many who have converted, Staples’ had a deep knowledge of scripture, but the AoG has the doctrine of “bible alone” or “sola scriptura”, which ignores most of sacred tradition. I have a deeper appreciation for my Catholic faith after knowing the struggles and challenges Mr. Staples went through. I have seen him in person; his enthusiasm is contagious. He is a wonderful preacher and presenter.
Dear Lord,Interesting Prayer however our Lord seems to be suggesting something different in the following passage. I think you may be familiar with it.
May those who love us love us.
And those that don’t love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn’t turn their hearts,
May he turn their ankles,
So we’ll know them by their limping.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Not per a Roman Catholic priest...
John O' Brien, Roman Catholic Priest in the Faith of Millions. | Hebrews 9:24-28 | Hebrews 10:11-13 |
When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of mannot once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priests command. | 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. | Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. |
Staples offers some of the weakest apologetics for Roman Catholicism I’ve read. I’ve seen them used on these threads before.
But these stray private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science. If we were to attempt to set forth the full doctrine of the Fathers on the sanctity of the Blessed Virgin, which includes particularly the implicit belief in the immaculateness of her conception, we should be forced to transcribe a multitude of passages. In the testimony of the Fathers two points are insisted upon: her absolute purity and her position as the second Eve (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:22 ).
Over time and through the Holy Spirit, doctrine has developed. It has been a slow process and one full of deliberation and debate. That doesn't invalidate the Church nor the body of theology. It actually enhances it because all sides of issues have been contemplated for millennia. You think you are the first ones to seek answers?
ALMOST NONE ARE FORMER PROTESTANTS.
For every one that converts, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands do not - their teachers, professors, congregations and fellow students.
For every protestant teacher who converts, there are many Catholic priests who leave Catholicism - as well as nuns.
For every protestant who goes to Catholicism, there are millions of Catholics who leave Rome and come to Christ - and that is just South America alone.
Pardon me, youre a hell of a lot smarter than John Henry Newman.
However, since own writings testify to the problems of reconciling RC distinctives with history, Newman is known for his work in the Roman art of Development of Doctrine due to lack of unanimous consent of the fathers (while making use of forgeries ).
In response to the Vincentian profession, Newman writes,
It does not seem possible, then, to avoid the conclusion that, whatever be the proper key for harmonizing the records and documents of the early and later Church, and true as the dictum of Vincentius must be considered in the abstract, and possible as its application might be in his own age, when he might almost ask the primitive centuries for their testimony, it is hardly available now, or effective of any satisfactory result. The solution it offers is as difficult as the original problem. John Henry Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (New York: Longmans, Green and Co., reprinted 1927), p. 27.
This required what even the Orthodox criticize as justifying regards certain RC extremes (for the Orthodox themselves teach many Catholic distinctives that certainly were not "believed everywhere, always and by all" in the NT church of Scripture, but are unseen in the inspired record of it):
Roman Catholicism, unable to show a continuity of faith and in order to justify new doctrine, erected in the last century, a theory of "doctrinal development."
Following the philosophical spirit of the time (and the lead of Cardinal Henry Newman), Roman Catholic theologians began to define and teach the idea that Christ only gave us an "original deposit" of faith, a "seed," which grew and matured through the centuries...
On this basis, theories such as the dogmas of "papal infallibility" and "the immaculate conception" of the Virgin Mary (about which we will say more) are justifiably presented to the Faithful as necessary to their salvation.
Yet this development of doctrine did not stop there, but attempts to justify everything from prayer to created beings in Heaven (nowhere seen or taught in Scripture - except by pagans - despite approx. 200 prayers recorded under the Spirit inspiration) to the Roman Caesario-papacy to the making of graven images for religious purposes and bowing down to them, and more. Newman again:
"...the rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should the occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace , as well as the philosophy of the educated class..."
"We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us."
"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin , and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.." {374} "The introduction of Images was still later, and met with more opposition in the West than in the East." (John Henry Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Chapter 8. Application of the Third Note of a True DevelopmentAssimilative Power; http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/chapter8.html)
The reality is that to be deep in history is to cease to find the Catholic church as being that of the NT church, and thus RCs argue that faith in Rome is necessary to both know what Scripture consists of and means, which is contrary to how the NT church began. For under the Catholic basis for veracity, RC belief and submission is not a result of first examining Scripture (or seeing manifest Scriptural substantiation in word and in power) and therefore believing Scriptural Truth, and rejecting as doctrines that the NT church did not manifestly teach, but that church teaching is to be believed because The One True Catholic Church® taught it, and if challenged, then Scripture (as its servant) must be compelled to support it.
Thus as Cardinal Newman affirms,
Christians have never gone to Scripture for proof of their doctrines until there was actual need, from the pressure of controversy... Letter to the Rev. E. B. Pusey" contained in Newman's "Difficulties of Anglicans" Volume II, Dignity of Mary; http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/newman-mary.asp
....there are doctrines which transcend the discoveries of reason; and, after all, whether they are more or less recommended to us by the one informant or the other, in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent. John Henry Newman, A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation. 8. The Vatican Council lhttp://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html
Which is akin to what another Anglican convert to Rome who preferred a king to NT leadership, Henry Edward Manning, who incredibly asserted,
It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine.
"I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves.... The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation, (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228."
For Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
Which is cultic, not Christian.
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