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To: HarleyD

Your comment: “While your view makes for a good story, this is not what the scriptures teaches. Only His sheep hear his voice.”

Why do some use a quote from the Bible to attempt to justify their comment without understanding (or ignoring) the rest of the teachings of Jesus?

We are all created by God and He wants all of us to join Him in Heaven by accepting His teachings and following God’s will to holiness. God gave us free will to either accept or reject God and His salvation for us. God is Love and he wants us to love Him and our neighbor. Everyone is His sheep and if allowed to hear the Truth may accept the Salvation that Jesus gained for us.

While not able to judge who gains or loses salvation, it appears that Luther even if he had good intentions may have rejected salvation and led others to reject salvation.

“Within his own framework, Luther was surely right in saying that his church would stand or fall with his idea of justification by faith. So we ask: Is it standing or falling? The answer: It has fallen—and for a double reason, according to his own calculations.”

There are two key words, not just one, in the expression “justification by faith.”

First, “justification”: Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly.

Did Paul mean that? Not really.

He spoke of Christians as a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). They are made over from scratch— they are not at all merely the same old total corruption! And he says more than once that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in us as in a temple (1 Cor. 3:17; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16). Can we imagine the Holy Spirit living in a temple that is total corruption?

Even more telling, if possible, is the idea Paul has of faith. Luther did not even make a good try at finding out what Paul meant by the word. He assumed what appealed to his scrupulous fears and said faith means confidence the merits of Christ apply to me. But there is an obvious way to find out what Paul really meant by faith: Read every place where Paul uses the word and related words. We can use a concordance to locate them, to keep notes, and to add them up.

If we do so this is what we get:”If God speaks a truth, faith requires that we believe it in our minds (cf. 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Cor. 5:7). If God makes a promise, faith requires that we be confident he will keep it (cf. Gal. 5:5; Rom .5:1). If God tells us to do something, we must obey (cf. Rom .1:5; 6:16). All this is to be done in love (Gal. 5:6).

How does this compare with just being confident that the merits of Christ apply to you? Quite a difference. So, by his own standard, Luther’s church has fallen. What he thought was a great discovery was just a great mistake, and his whole system stands or falls on his error, as he himself admitted.”

The rest of the article: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/luthers-obituary-for-lutheranism


66 posted on 09/03/2017 6:23:13 AM PDT by ADSUM
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To: ADSUM
First, "justification": Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly.

Did Paul mean that? Not really.

He spoke of Christians as a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). They are made over from scratch-- they are not at all merely the same old total corruption! And he says more than once that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in us as in a temple (1 Cor. 3:17; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16). Can we imagine the Holy Spirit living in a temple that is total corruption?

The failed human logic of your religion falls flat on its face when it comes to scripture...

So you imagine then the Holy Spirit living in a body/temple that is only partially corrupt??? Or in only a Catholic who is not corrupt at all???

Christians are made over from scratch??? What utter nonsense...

76 posted on 09/03/2017 9:08:49 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: ADSUM
First, “justification”: Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly. . Did Paul mean that? Not really.

You do realize Paul struggled with the old self....right?

79 posted on 09/03/2017 10:15:08 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ADSUM
Why do some use a quote from the Bible to attempt to justify their comment without understanding (or ignoring) the rest of the teachings of Jesus?...God gave us free will to either accept or reject God and His salvation for us.

The concept of "free will" was deemed heresy at the Council of Orange.

I would also call your attention to the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Luther, Calvin and the rest were only following in the footsteps of what Augustine and the Council of Orange declare-a person is elected into God's family. Christ said, "You did not choose me but I choose you." (John 15:16) The whole Old Testament is dedicated to "a chosen people", a "holy nation".

If you miss this concept it baffled me for 30 years. But it is very clear and with a little bit of review and an open heart it is plainly taught in scripture. We are wicked people who are saved only by God's grace. It is no different than God appearing to Paul on the Damascus Road, God revealing Himself to Moses via a burning bush, God calling to Samuel as he was trying to get some sleep. We are all saved exactly the same way, by God grace. Christ comes up to us, tells us to get up and follow Him, and so we do it. This is NOT of yourself, it is a gift from God. (Eph 2:8-9) This is the reason we pray for the salvation of others. Please consider the most obvious verse of all verses:

The real question is why doesn't God save everyone? That is the mystery but then that is His prerogative.

Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly.

I'm not sure that is correct. Before Christ we are in bondage to sin. After Christ, Christians no longer practice sin, but they still sin as residue of their old nature (1 John). But despite the poorly worded title in the Westminster Confession, there is no such thing as "free will". There is God's will and there is our will. Our will strives with God's will and God works to bring it into subjection to Him (to the praise of His glory). We don't "freely" do the things of God unless God empowers us to do His will. As Augustine writes, "Command what you will, and grant what you command." As I've asked many times, "If you really, really have a "free will", then why do you sin?" I have yet to get a response to that question. Our sinfulness as Christians is a hold over of our old nature and is evidence of our willful, sinful self as we once were. May God grant us His power to be submissive to His will.

88 posted on 09/03/2017 12:16:41 PM PDT by HarleyD (Ecc 10:2 A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left.)
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To: ADSUM
irst, “justification”: Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly. Did Paul mean that? Not really. He spoke of Christians as a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). They are made over from scratch— they are not at all merely the same old total corruption! And he says more than once that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in us as in a temple (1 Cor. 3:17; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16). Can we imagine the Holy Spirit living in a temple that is total corruption? Even more telling, if possible, is the idea Paul has of faith. Luther did not even make a good try at finding out what Paul meant by the word. He assumed what appealed to his scrupulous fears and said faith means confidence the merits of Christ apply to me. But there is an obvious way to find out what Paul really meant by faith: Read every place where Paul uses the word and related words. We can use a concordance to locate them, to keep notes, and to add them up. If we do so this is what we get:”If God speaks a truth, faith requires that we believe it in our minds (cf. 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Cor. 5:7). If God makes a promise, faith requires that we be confident he will keep it (cf. Gal. 5:5; Rom .5:1). If God tells us to do something, we must obey (cf. Rom .1:5; 6:16). All this is to be done in love (Gal. 5:6). How does this compare with just being confident that the merits of Christ apply to you? Quite a difference. So, by his own standard, Luther’s church has fallen. What he thought was a great discovery was just a great mistake, and his whole system stands or falls on his error, as he himself admitted.”

See what Luther actually taught in post 110 , then tell me why I should heed what some parroting propagandist says about Luther, whose polemical hyperbole is often taken out of context by such, when they are not passing on fabrications?

113 posted on 09/03/2017 8:43:25 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + folllow Him)
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