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To: marshmallow
I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.
4 posted on 08/17/2017 7:51:33 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (ObamaCare Works For Those Who Don't.)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Me too. I know of no “original doctrine” that this pope has presented that (1) opposes communism and illegality (in all of its forms)
or (2) promotes freedom and democracy (as we used to know it)
or (3) supports Good over Sin and Evil. If, indeed, he opposes “sin” at all.

Interesting, isn’t it?


7 posted on 08/17/2017 8:00:57 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (I can only donate monthly, but socialists' ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Gay State Conservative
I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.

He lost me when he mocked families having lots of kids.

13 posted on 08/17/2017 8:59:59 PM PDT by Slyfox (Where's Reagan when we need him? Look in the mirror - the spirit of The Gipper lives within you.)
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To: Gay State Conservative; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; ..
I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.

But what is it that you were not taught? RCs have been basically telling us for centuries that relying on our judgment of what valid teaching is and what it means is wrong, and that we need a pope and magisterium to submit to in order to avoid division, and not only in solemn ex cathedra teachings, but then they declare their own pope as wrong and leadership (including V2) as liberal based upon their judgment of what valid teaching is and means, including on what requires assent.

* Epistola Tua: To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment , and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.... Similarly, it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.

On this point what must be remembered is that in the government of the Church, except for the essential duties imposed on all Pontiffs by their apostolic office, each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge. It is true that for this he has not only special lights, but still more the knowledge of the needs and conditions of the whole of Christendom, for which, it is fitting, his apostolic care must provide. - Epistola Tua (1885), Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=403215&language=en

"It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

Nor can we pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that "without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to [only] concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals." But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church. (Quanta Cura. Encyclical of Pope Pius IX promulgated on December 8, 1864; http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm)

20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent... if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians. - PIUS XII, HUMANI GENERI, August 1950; http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

The authority (of papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great". It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church." - Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, esteemed Catholic theologian and professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America, who served as a peritus for Cardinal Ottaviani at the Second Vatican Council. Extract from the American Ecclesiastical Review, Vol. CXXI, August, 1949; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty.

Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord. - CASTI CONNUBII, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI; https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html

...when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority ; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.

The Bishops form the most sacred part of the Church, that which instructs and governs men by divine right; and so he who resists them and stubbornly refuses to obey their word places himself outside the Church [cf. Matt. 18:18]. But obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces. - (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912, as found at http://www.christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x

to scrutinize the actions of a bishop, to criticize them, does not belong to individual Catholics, but concerns only those who, in the sacred hierarchy, have a superior power; above all, it concerns the Supreme Pontiff, for it is to him that Christ confided the care of feeding not only all the lambs, but even the sheep [cf. John 21:17]. - Est Sane Molestum (1888) Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.novusordowatch.org/est-sane-molestum-leo-xiii.htm

In addition, as concerns social teaching, The "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" (2005) states:

80. In the Church’s social doctrine the Magisterium is at work in all its various components and expressions. … Insofar as it is part of the Church’s moral teaching, the Church’s social doctrine has the same dignity and authority as her moral teaching. It is authentic Magisterium, which obligates the faithful to adhere to it . - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

And it is quite well evidenced that the popes last encyclical (http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html) is intended to teach what the Church's moral teaching demands as regards ecology and economy. (172 references in this encyclical cite church teaching and prelates for support).

Thus we either have Trad. RCs contradicting past papal teaching in dissenting from modern papal and magisterial teaching, and that Rome's interpretation of herself is to be trusted.

They also disagree on whether a pope can be deposed.

14 posted on 08/18/2017 4:16:14 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + folllow Him)
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To: Gay State Conservative
I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.

Well then; where is this LIST of things has proclaimed and/or commented on?

Let's actually VIEW THE EVIDENCE.

18 posted on 08/18/2017 5:34:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Gay State Conservative
I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.

As a Roman Catholic though, how do you decide which is correct?

Unam Sanctam and other papal decrees do not appear to give the laity the ability to question the pope.

26 posted on 08/18/2017 6:27:13 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Gay State Conservative; daniel1212

[[I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.]]

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater.
It’s the importance of following truth in what his word says instead of what someone in power says .
That’s why you believe scripture and not the words of men.

At Jesus first coming a lot of Jews missed him because they held their tradition above God’s word (which even told them that their Messiah would be coming 490 years after the decree was given to rebuilt the wall of Jerusalem they ignored it , they ignored Isaiah too when he stated their Messiah would die for them and bear the sins of many )

Look up my tag line ,that’s the Gospel.
You either trust him to save you or you don’t.
The pope saves no one , Mary saves no one , the Catholic church saves no one , you can’t be saved once your dead since it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgement

(Hebrews 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(Hebrews 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It’s only the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins.

(1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

No earthly priest can cleanse you from sin . Only Jesus blood does.That is why he died .

The pope is no high priest . The bible says Jesus is the high priest that makes intersession for us .

(Hebrews 6:19) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

(Hebrews 6:20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

You either trust Jesus or you don’t

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(John 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


42 posted on 08/18/2017 9:24:19 AM PDT by Lera (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
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