Posted on 08/02/2017 2:07:44 PM PDT by detective
I do. It depends on the request. Sometimes you want to pray to someone who you knew was a great saint on earth who is somehow related to the issue, like maybe St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, for a wayward Jesuit priest.
One of your fellow Roman Catholics says ya'll don't pray to departed relatives.
But another question....why would you? Don't Roman Catholics believe they are in Purgatory?
If so...who would they be talking to?
Why would God enable a dead person to intercede for you when He has already told you that His Son is the only intercessor and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
Hilarious.
Jesus. Conversed with angels. And with Moses and Elijah. Evidently they could hear Him, and he could hear them. Many people in both the OT and the NT interacted with angels. Evidently there is communication between these dear heavenly persons and ourselves.
Revelation presents us with the vision of angels at the Throne of God, acting as intermediaries by offering to Him, with incense, the prayers of the holy ones on earth (Rev. 8:3-4)
The books of Tobit and Maccabees likewise
present the angels and holy ones in heaven (specifically, Onias the High Priest who was martyred, and Jeremiah, 2 Macc 12-15) interceding for God’s people on earth. I suppose you have not kept Tobit and Maccabees in your Bible, but still, it should be interesting to you to see what Jesus and the Apostles and the NT Christians were reading in the Septuagint: *their* Bible.
The strongest testimony comes from St. Paul, who repeatedly urges us to see that we are all living members of the Body of Christ. At no point does he say that this intimate relationship, of giving and receiving prayers and love and spiritual gifts thanks to Jesus Christ -— with Him, and through Him, and in Him-— will cease once you are in heaven!
On the contrary, it is certain that the ties of love and the eagerness in Christ to shower each other with mutual aid are, in that heavenly realm, unimaginably stronger: eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man to imagine, what God has ready for those who love Him.
I’m alive and I can’t hear you unless we’re in the same room.
There is no indication in the Holy Bible that you should ever pray to the dead or another human being.
If what you’re saying is true, why do you ask people to pray for you when you should pray directly to Jesus?
They are members of the Body of Christ. As unaided human beings there is nothing they can do. As members of Christ there is nothing they cannot do.
Don’t you know what it means to be in Christ?
1Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Usually I don’t ask people to pray for me, because I don’t like being a burden to other people.
But if I asked people to pray for me, it would be living people who only pray to the Savior.
I wouldn’t pray TO dead people and I wouldn’t (because it is not possible) ask a dead person to pray for me.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...”
We are not Jesus.
1Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matt 17:1-3 NASB
This was unique situation in the NT.
Many people in both the OT and the NT interacted with angels. Evidently there is communication between these dear heavenly persons and ourselves.
Agree....and in those instances the angels were sent by God to earth to talk with the person IIRC.
The books of Tobit and Maccabees likewise present the angels and holy ones in heaven (specifically, Onias the High Priest who was martyred, and Jeremiah, 2 Macc 12-15) interceding for God’s people on earth. I suppose you have not kept Tobit and Maccabees in your Bible, but still, it should be interesting to you to see what Jesus and the Apostles and the NT Christians were reading in the Septuagint: *their* Bible.
Tobit and Maccabees, while interesting books to read, are not considered canon.
The strongest testimony comes from St. Paul, who repeatedly urges us to see that we are all living members of the Body of Christ. At no point does he say that this intimate relationship, of giving and receiving prayers and love and spiritual gifts thanks to Jesus Christ -— with Him, and through Him, and in Him-— will cease once you are in heaven!
Actually Paul is the strongest opponent of Roman Catholic claims in this matter...and others.
In all of his writings his instructions regarding prayer is that it is always directed to God. Yes, we on earth pray for each other, but those prayers are directed to God.
On the contrary, it is certain that the ties of love and the eagerness in Christ to shower each other with mutual aid are, in that heavenly realm, unimaginably stronger: eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man to imagine, what God has ready for those who love Him.
Presumption on the part of the Roman Catholic and actually a rejection of NT teaching.
The Catholic assumes we do not have the "ear" of God because we are here on earth. I think this is one of the beliefs behind praying to Mary....that somehow she is "closer" to God than we are so her prayers are answered first. There are even some Roman Catholic writings that say we should go to Mary first if we want things done. Sheer blasphemy.
However, the NT teaches us otherwise.
14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. 1 John 5:14-15 NASB
4Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! 5Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. 6Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:4-7 NASB
Does that sound like God isn't listening or doesn't want us to pray straight to Him??
You are wrong; Catholics do know. The Feast of Her Assumption into Heaven will be celebrated on the 15th of this month.
I'm sorry you don't "know", however.
No....Roman Catholics don't know....they think they do but don't.
Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known.
The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption is found in the Greek work De Obitu S. Dominae. Catholic faith, however, has always derived our knowledge of the mystery from Apostolic Tradition. Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it (Haer., lxxix, 11).
The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension. Two cities claim to be the place of her departure: Jerusalem and Ephesus. Common consent favours Jerusalem, where her tomb is shown; but some argue in favour of Ephesus. The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at Jerusalem.
Regarding the origin of the feast we are also uncertain.
It is more probably the anniversary of the dedication of some church than the actual anniversary of Our Lady's death.
That it originated at the time of the Council of Ephesus, or that St. Damasus introduced it in Rome is only a hypothesis.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
That’s just like you.
Telling Catholics what they do and do not know.
Give it a rest and stick to your own cult.
You may note the source is a Roman Catholic one. I copied the info from the source.
You have a problem with Roman Catholic history take it up with them.
Apparently you were unaware of the history behind this topic. Perhaps you've learned something tonight.
“And there is absolutely zero Scriptural evidence for what Roman Catholicism claims regarding Mary’s seemingly divine powers.”
And what scriptural proof do you have for sola fide or sola scriptura? NONE. All you can do is say every time faith is mentioned it means ONLY faith (when there’s no evidence of that), and you ASSUME sola scriptura is true but have no evidence for it whatsoever. Thus, it is self-refuting. We, on the other hand, are saying that what Mary does she does through God’s power. You can’t claim that for sola fide or sola scriptura.
“I provide the text you cite for context.”
Fine. Unnecessary since it changes nothing I said - it only proves I got it right from the beginning.
“Paul is speaking of a future event in this passage regarding saints judging the world and/or angels.”
And? Of course he’s talking about a future event. Is this news to you?
“Yes...it does mean Mary cannot hear us anymore than our departed loved ones can.”
Mary can’t - on her own. She can with God, however.
“And all of those examples are people on earth praying for people on earth or were prayers directed to God on behalf of someone.”
Exactly. INTERCESSION. If we on earth can intercede, how much more can those in Heaven?
“There are admonitions in the NT to pray to anyone other than God.”
Saints in Heaven are united with God. There is no prohibition whatsoever in the New Testament against asking Saints to intercede with God for us.
“I’m alive...”
On earth. Which means you’re seriously limited by time and space.
“... and I can’t hear you unless we’re in the same room.”
That’s not true. Through technology you can hear me from great distances. God is more powerful than any technology.
“There is no indication in the Holy Bible that you should ever pray to the dead or another human being.”
I’m not praying to the dead - God is the God of the living just as Jesus says. And the Bible never once claims to contain all truths.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,
for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect,
thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
It is written and Trust in the Lord are good proofs of sola scriptura and sola fide .
Scripture is the only inspired set of texts we have. No other writings can make that claim. To rely upon something else is to elevate them to the level of Scripture...or in cases of the RCC above Scripture.
To what did Jesus appeal to when He argued with Satan? Tradition? Nope. Scripture.
All you can do is say every time faith is mentioned it means ONLY faith (when there’s no evidence of that), and you ASSUME sola scriptura is true but have no evidence for it whatsoever.
No....for the Christian our faith will produce fruit. It's tangible evidence of our faith. Hence one of the reasons I post on these threads....to give an account of the Gospel.
Thus, it is self-refuting. We, on the other hand, are saying that what Mary does she does through God’s power. You can’t claim that for sola fide or sola scriptura.
A lot of people have claimed much in the name of God....doesn't mean it's right.
Actually sola fide and sola scriptura are through God's power....He's made it possible for both.
The mere fact that God tells us to come to Him through faith and that by grace we are saved through faith is evidence for sola fide.
Or maybe the 243 references to faith in the NT might be a strong indicator of sola fide. Granted not all references are of believing faith but a great number are. I'll have to do a more detailed review later.
Regarding sola scriptura, there are 76 results of "it is written" in the Bible. More are in the NT (60) which would not be a surprise.
There are another 73 references to "write" in the OT and NT with 35 in the OT and 38 in the NT. Again, another strong indicator of the appeal to the written word.
God has always left a written record of what He wants His people to do. Again, another strong indicator of the appeal to the written word.
The Roman Catholic church has zero Scriptural support of what they claim Mary is able to do.
Still, it never ceases to amaze me how much Roman Catholics seem to minimize the very book they claim to have given everyone.
My impression is that some people-— you? I don’t know, but some people -— think of Christ as a very limited and simple minded fellow, a singer who knows how to do solos but has no idea how to conduct a symphony orchestra or direct vast splendid choral music.
Perhaps some people cannot see Him as having any talent for filling and vivifying His people, actually incorporating them into his Body and sounding forth His genius, His music through them. Becoming part of Christ has astounding implications, and, unimaginable though it is, He goes yet further, making us partakers in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3).
!!!
The divine nature!
By way of comparison, think of how much we can interact with people even here on this earth, and with reference only to our puny human skills and sciences: cloud computing, simultaneous digital connection, communicating with millions or billions. And that’s just our feeble natural accomplishment. Puny.
Do you think IN HEAVEN for God’s sake, we will be unable to do even that? Will we be held incommunicado? Unable to see, or hear? We will be inconsequential and insignificant? We will be LESS capable than our own puny, earthly electronic devices, in Eternity, in the realm of God’s infinite power, in Him in Whom we live and move and have our being??
Why put such incredibly narrow limitations on Christ!
BTW, thank you for your prayers, an offer I take seriously and with a grateful heart.
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