Pope Francis meets with Rev. Jens-Martin Kruse at Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church on Nov. 15 2016
Posted on 06/23/2017 9:12:09 AM PDT by ebb tide
Pope Francis meets with Rev. Jens-Martin Kruse at Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church on Nov. 15 2016
The commission consists of representatives from all three denominations, all bound to secrecy.
The journalist, who is well known in Italy for his accurate reporting of all things happening in the Vatican, has said that while this news is merely a “rumor” at this point, his “sources are usually good.”
According to his sources, the commission is finding little difficulty in finding common ground in the “liturgy of the word”. Tosatti reports: “After the confession of sins, asking for forgiveness, and reciting the Gloria, there would be the readings and the Gospel.”
He also said that the commission is allegedly studying the problem of the Creed. Protestant churches prefer to pray the Apostles’ Creed, although they do recognize the Nicene Creed. The Catholic Church alternates between them. So not even this point should be a major problem.
The presentation of the gifts likewise does not present a major obstacle to the project.
According to Tosatti, the central issue lies in the Eucharist, since the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is profoundly different from that of the Lutherans or of other Protestant denominations. Catholics believe in Transubstantiation and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, while Protestants believe that it is merely a memorial.
Tosatti reports that a possible “solution” being proposed is that the words of Consecration be replaced by silence:
But how can a common liturgy be celebrated that clearly differs in the wording right at the most important point of the event?
One of the proposed possible solutions would be silence. It would mean that after the Sanctus, at the moment in which normally during the Mass the priest would say the words: “Father, you are holy indeed…” the different celebrants would keep silent, everyone mentally repeating “his own” formula.
The silence is broken in the congregation with the recitation of the Our Father. It is still not clear how the lines for Communion would be formed.
In light of this well-founded rumor, we should take heed of the remarks of Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, a close collaborator of Pope Francis and currently the President of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. The Vatican cardinal has suggested that we stop thinking of sacraments so rigidly as only either valid or invalid. For the sake of ecumenism, he opined that we should start looking into sacraments perhaps having “imperfect” or “partial” validity. Below are his exact words, as published in his exclusive interview with Edward Pentin of the National Catholic Register:
We say, everything is valid; nothing is valid. Maybe we have to reflect on this concept of validity or invalidity. The Second Vatican Council said there is a true communion [between Catholics and Protestants] even if it is not yet definitive or full. You see, they made a concept not so decisive, either all or nothing. There’s a communion that is already good, but some elements are missing. But, if you say some things are missing and that therefore there is nothing, you err. There are pieces missing, but there is already a communion, but it is not full communion. The same thing can be said, or something similar, of the validity or invalidity of ordination. I said let’s think about it. It’s a hypothesis. Maybe there is something, or maybe there’s nothing — a study, a reflection. ∎
by John Supplers, Veritas Vincit
So, have they fairly followed the arguments? There is little evidence that they have even comprehended them.
But what do they know?
Kinda sounds like how liberals like to argue.
The words now mean what I want them to mean....not what they actually mean.
I would not want to think that 20 centuries of the Holy Spirit’s leading would result in nothing worth keeping.
If, as a Roman Catholic, you say you don't worship Mary will you:1) throw away any "statues", medallions, medals, etc of Mary?
2) not pray to Mary or invoke her name in any prayer including the Hail Mary?
3) pray only to the Father or Jesus?
No, No, and No.
This is because you are insisting that I accept your false assumptions:
Gently, let me say: that's nonsense.
Way back in NT days, St. Paul recognized the marriages of Catholics and non-Catholics. I don’t recall him forbidding them to pray together.
But if we are quoting the scriptures i believe we should quote them correct.
We have so many people on these threads that does not give a dam what the Bible actually says but plays with words to try and get it the way they want it.
that statues, medallions, etc.are evidence of wrongful worship (idolatry)
They are in contrast to the Scriptures...so yes...they are wrong.
that praying or asking intercessory prayer from anyone other than God is likewise idolatry, and that
However, as well attested the Roman Catholic prays TO Mary. In some of the prayers TO Mary it is hoped Mary will get Jesus to things He doesn't want to do or that she will somehow hurry Him up in answering prayers.
our fruitful and efficacious spiritual relationships with other members of the Body of Christ are either useless or harmful.
The NT notes these relationships are with other believers on earth who are alive.
The Roman Catholic justification for worshiping Mary is proven to be in contrast to revealed Scripture.
We've been told on these forums that the Holy Spirit doesn't pick the pope....so how do we know what he's said over the years is correct?
Time means nothing to God. Judaism can claim a longer time interval than can the RCC.
Error had already crept into the NT church as evidenced by Paul and John's writings. We see lots of error has crept in the RCC as evidenced by the worship of Mary for starters.
The mods must be off today for you to make such a personal attack so casually.
Can a normal human handle more than a million verbal requests per day? No. But Catholic Magic Thinking would have the Mother of Jesus, IN HEAVEN PHYSICALLY fielding more than that ... and you don’t like the term demigoddess? What would you call such a god-like feat? And the Catholic religion goes even further declaring the Mother of Jesus to be a co-mediatrix for salvation. Yeah, Mariology raises a mortal to demi-goddess status even if you are unwilling to admit the Truth of it, and instead accuse persons of not comprehending the argument.
There were no ‘Catholics’ in New Testament days, only members of the Ekklesia. The post was posed fraudulently.
As Rush would say, “Right on, right on, Brother.”
A million is undercutting the number considerably.
Consider there are an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world today.
If they all said one, just one, Hail Mary, that's 1.2 billion (1,200,000,000) prayers TO Mary...every day.
That's 13,889 prayers she has to respond to every second.
Consider though...if the Hail Mary is said as a part of the Rosary not only is the Roman Catholic praying TO Mary...they are praying the "Our Father" as well.
God is capable of handling any number of prayers as He is omniscient. However, this means that Mary must be able to handle the same number of prayers as God [for simplicity we will count the Rosary as one prayer though multiple Hail Mary's are a part of the Rosary depending on the method followed].
Further, this does not take into account the different languages in which these prayers would be offered. Mary has to know every language on the planet.
Does this not place her on the same level of ability as God?
Does this not make her omniscient as well??
If just half say the Hail Mary it's 600,000,000 prayers TO Mary....every day. Or 6,944 per second.
This does not count the other innumerable prayers Roman Catholics make to Mary on a daily basis.
But again, let's be conservative and say on 300,000,000 Roman Catholics make an actual petition of Mary for something in addition to the Hail Mary prayer.
Mary is potentially handling 1.5 billion prayer requests a day now from all over the globe.
A google search of "prayers to Mary" results in 51,100,000 results.
A google search of "prayers to Jesus" results in 18,400,000.
It may be a fair statement to say Roman Catholics pray more to Mary than Jesus.
You would attribute to a person glorified and transfigured in heaven, a person enveloped in God's power and presence, less capacity than a man-made machine?
I'd say the Biblically sound ones are smart seeing as any kind of "ecumenical" agreements with the RCC would entail the Lutherans agreeing to the demands of the RCC to accept the Pope of Rome as their head along with other unbiblical demands. Best to remain separate and stay true to Jesus Christ.
.
>> “Do you really think that a glorified human being...” <<
Mary is not a “glorified human being!”
Mary is one of the Dead in Yeshua, awaiting the opportunity to become a “son of God” (literally re-created being capable of existing outside of space-time) at the Last Trump.
She “handles” absolutely nothing!
.
You would attribute to a person glorified and transfigured in heaven, a person enveloped in God's power and presence, less capacity than a man-made machine?
This speculation of Mary's capabilities is based on what?
No danger of anything else happening. If the LCMS ever made a move toward Rome short of Luthers 95 theses being addressed the rank and file would walk. We haven’t stood for Truth for 500 years to say it all doesn’t matter any more at this point...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your question here seems to rest on the assumption that "what [popes] have said over the years" is constitutive of the deposit of Faith. In other words, that the Catholic faith consists of 'what popes have said.'
This is not so.
The Catholic faith is constituted by the truths handed on to us by the Apostles.
Thus the key to Catholic doctrine is what Pope Benedict XVI called the "Hermetic of Continuity." It doers not consist of papal opinions. It consists of the perennial doctrines, the Eternal Law: what has been passed down to us from the Apostles.
These doctrines can grow deeper, richer, higher, wider, more elaborate as we see the reasonable inferences and logical corollaries that flow from them, as new questions are asked and answered, and new challenges met, or as the doctrines are applied to the changing conditions of persons and cultures through the ages.
This is a huge, HUGE historical process endowed with the providential guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised. It is not the invention of some all-purpose oracle called "pope."
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