Posted on 06/18/2017 2:09:43 PM PDT by narses
Taking exception with your argument, as well as laying aside the usual (valid) argument re the "wine" of the communion table that MHG presents, let me relate this experience:
I once partook of the tokens of the Lord's Passion in a Lutheran ritual at my cousin's church. What stunned me was that the wine was not in reality even symbolic of Jesus' Blood; it was, in fact, alcoholic wine of the kind reminding me of my pre-saved past as a habitual heavy drinker!
Now, you know that a fluid containing some ten to twelve per cent of ethanol cannot possibly be even representative of the life-giving blood of any human or beast. The reason that you don't know how table wine can become "the real blood of Christ" is that it isn't, and there is no possible explanation how in God's created universe that it ever could be, literally or figuratively.
It is true that human blood can contain a bit of unmetabolized alcohol (click here), but even one half per cent BAC would be lethal.
To me, this is sufficient logical and experiential evidence that some Lutheran wine (I found out afterward that on the communion card one may indicate a choice for non-alcoholic) cannot even symbolically represent the state of human blood. With this in mind, I do not hold your interpretation of 1 Cor. 11:27 as having any validity whatsoever.
Nor would Jesus ever have His disciples, now quite well aware of symbolism in His teaching, ever come to the conclusion that their table wine (alcoholic or not, and I think not) could ever be in plain literal language the same substance as His literal blood, still wholly contained within His skin, and not yet exsanguinated at Calvary.
I take exception to YOUR exception.
Scripture states clearly that it is both.
Therefore, because Jesus rose from the dead, and he laid his stamp of approval on it, being, you know, GOD, I believe it.
Don’t ask me how it’s true because I don’t know; I only know it is.
Christ and the apostles did not speak Greek. They spoke Aramaic.
***
Wow, ignoring the original language that the Bible was written in?
And considering the fact that Koine was THE universal language at the time, you’ve decided to call Jesus stupid enough that he couldn’t possibly know BOTH of the languages spoken in Judea at the time. Especially considering that he named Peter after a word... IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE.
And you present this without ANY Scriptural basis?
Oh, sorry. IGNORING Scriptural basis, because the Gospels make special exception for when Jesus DOES speak Aramaic. As in, that’s an unusual thing. You’d think that they’d have mentioned somewhere that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic.
And for what, so you can make an assumption that just so happens to support what you’ve already decided. The very definition of confirmation bias.
Yeah, you’ve sure educated me all right. Too bad it’s not the education you intended.
Allow me to snort with laughter.
Oh, and you still haven’t answered my accusations about the Roman Catholic hierarchy committing blasphemy against the Word of God. Because if they HAVE, then all your arguments are moot because the Roman Catholics are no longer a church at ALL and stand condemned.
Oh, and while I’m thinking about it.
How do you handle all the Catholic theologians from the first few centuries that make the claim that Jesus never meant Peter but always the confession of Jesus as the Christ?
You know?
After your accusations, I did some research.
(Though let’s be honest. Not presenting proof of your arguments is pretty lame.)
And while I don’t believe you for a second, I will say that yes, Jesus spoke Aramiac. That doesn’t, however, mean that none of them spoke Koine. Considering how John and Matthew were distributed in Koine, with a distinct lack of Aramaic Gospels, I find it hard to believe that they’re ignorant like that.
And no, I still don’t believe you. You have not presented proof that what you claimed was the original word was actually spoken; all you have offered was an assumption that fits your narrative.
On top of that, you have not offered any additional arguments to support your claim about Peter having church authority, only one passage that could be interpreted multiple ways.
And considering the fact that the church was spread on the confession that Jesus is the Christ, not that Peter was the leader of some new religion, suggests that the ‘rock’ was ‘you are the Christ.’
No dice, sir. No dice.
By the way, have you considered my accusations against Roman theology and how it blasphemes the Word of God?
You are really ignorant and did not read what I wrote, or maybe you simply do not understand English. I said Scripture references Cephas 4 times in Cor and 4 times in Gal. Also once in John
Scripture calls Peter Cephas - the Greek for Kepha, which is Aramic for Rock.
Why would there be so many references to Peter the Rock if those were not the words of Christ? And again, I ask you to use Scripture to prove your beliefs.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).
1 Corinthians 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1 Corinthians 3:22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
1 Corinthians 9:5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?
1 Corinthians 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
Galatians 1:18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.
Galatians 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
What were Christ's last words on the cross? Greek or Aramaic?
Izzat so?
Guess what an ANGEL told John to write about those 7 Catholic CHURCHES in Revelation chapters 2&3.
Why is it that only Prots can see a problem with Rome's explanations?
I already answered this in another post, probably as you were writing. I did my own research, and my speedily and angry original reply had some errors in it, which I corrected. So you have my deep regrets for replying too quickly.
So congrats, you win the argument about Aramaic.
HOWEVER.
There is no evidence in Scripture that Peter had any extra authority than the other Apostles. In fact... thank you for quoting some verses that I will now use to argue against you.
“1 Corinthians 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” “
You would think that if Peter had special authority, Paul would have ordered them to follow him. No, that does not in fact seem to be the case.
On top of that, it seems that Peter had a wife? But I thought that Roman Catholic priests weren’t allowed to get married. SCANDALOUS.
Have you considered also the fact that your own theologians confessed that it was the confession of faith, not Cephas himself, that was the rock that Jesus spoke of?
And finally:
Have you considered my accusations of Roman blasphemy against the Word?
Because if those accusations are true, then the REAL Catholic church was rediscovered by Luther and you Catholics are the heretics.
|
Is Peter the 'rock'?
As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. NIV Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " 8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS??? NIV Genesis 49:24-25 24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb. NIV Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink." NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior. NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up? 31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede. NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; 3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me. NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior! NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God, 4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.' NIV Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. NIV Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior! NIV Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. NIV Psalms 28:1
To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me. 3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me. NIV Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?" NIV Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge. NIV Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. NIV Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer. NIV Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green, 15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." NIV Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. NIV Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. NIV Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. NIV Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. NIV Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. NIV Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." NIV Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish. |
And now you know the Biblical position!
Read the plain words of Scripture to find the real meaning.
Snark, snark, snark.
I told you, you won the language battle about Cephas and I originally replied without thinking.
Good for you. Feel free to strut around and stick your nose in the air.
You have not answered any of my counter-arguments yet. Get to it, or admit that Rome has blasphemed the Word.
Why take this verse out of context?The CATHOLIC ECFs taught something entirely different than what Rome's inions push today:
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:
• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
• Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):
Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.
By ignoring it.
(If the PAST is any evidence...)
Dang!
Rome's First Pope is getting some REALLY bad press here!
Thank you Elsie; I was just hunting down similar quotes, and you read my mind. Or something.
"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians:not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
And of course there’s the fact that Jesus called Peter Satan just moments afterwards.
Rock refers to a lot of things in Scripture. Including Peter.
So I guess you a Human without sin. Good for you!
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