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“This view is easily disproved by reading Paul... Christians [may live] a carnal life.”

Paul’s letter to the Corinthians did not make being “carnal” a normative condition. There is no such category as “carnal Christian.”

Paul described professing believers who were behaving like unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

Why? Because they were divisive and envious. These are things that God will reprove and correct in the life of a believer.

Hebrews 12:7-8
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Do you think God will allow His true children to live in sin? to live a “carnal” life? to go on sinning, without correcting it?

The Corinthians were reproved and corrected by Paul. And they repented, showing that they were genuine believers.

2 Corinthians 7:10-11
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

And even in the case of more egregious sin Paul was addressing in Corinth, it was unthinkable that this could continue to go on.

1 Corinthians 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So, yes, even Christians can commit very serious sins. But true, born-again believers can not continue in sin. Real believers are not going to be comfortable living in sin. And even if this were possible, God would intervene to discipline the the disobedient believer. This could even result in death.

The Bible encourages believers with the confidence and assurance we can have in knowing that we have eternal life now. Assurance is based in the evidences of being a true believer. It is never based merely on having said a prayer to receive Christ. The test is having fruit, transformation, obedience, continuing in the faith, and an awareness of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

This last verse underscores the importance of testing out our own personal belief that we have eternal life. Because it is possible for people to be convinced they are “Christian,” but actually be on their way to hell.

So I return to my original point. A Christian is not someone who has merely, at some time or another, made some sort of decision for Christ. That criteria may be fine for a brand new believer. But it is not acceptable for someone who professes to have been a follower of Christ for some time and is not demonstrating the outworking of this salvation in his or her life. Those who are elect of God are chosen not just to make one initial response of faith, but to also walk in faith and bear fruit that is consistent with someone who has the eternal life of Jesus Christ inside of him or her.

People who profess faith in Christ but remain in sin, bear no fruit to God, demonstrate no grief over sin, but stubborn persistence in sin, are headed for hell. They may have confessed with their mouth, but their works deny Him. And those who preach a Gospel that allows this lack of repentance and absence of the transforming work of the Spirit of God, are preaching a false Gospel, which is a wicked offense that God will punish.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:5-6
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

A true believer will “hold fast” and go on believing the Gospel. The anguish over sin that leads a sinner to flee to the cross will continue to work within the believer to cause him or her to continue to seek God, confess and get rid of sin, and grow in righteousness. Those who preach otherwise are spreading “vain words” that lead men to destruction.

The New Testament does not use the term “Christian” as the main word to describe followers of Christ. It uses words like brother, sister, disciple, and mostly believer.

A person who does not follow Christ is not a follower. A person who does not continue in the faith is not a believer. There are those who receive the word of God with joy and fall away. There are those who show initial signs of faith but turn away due to cares of this world and deceitfulness of riches. These WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. These need to hear that they are hell-bound and need to go back to the message of repentance and faith in the cross of Christ.

Those who think they are just “carnal Christians” who will just miss out on some rewards but will escape hell because of the fire at the bema judgement need to realize they are LOST and still need to repent and believe the Gospel.

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I know people who made professions of faith and demonstrated that very lifestyle, one that showed NO evidence at all of salvation.

No desire to read the word, no interest in prayer or fellowship with other believers, a casual attitude towards sin, taking salvation for granted.

And I also know a couple who profess to be believers, (him I'm sure about but her I'm not) who think that is you simply pray a prayer, you are saved, even if you never show any evidence of salvation.

I have often wondered if people come to that kind of theology because of their lifestyles, that they are still after several decades of being a Christian, or professing to be, still deal with issues and live in a way that sometimes shocks me, the language she uses, the things she jokes about, the anger issues they both deal with. He defends her to the death cause he loves her, but I suspect that their theology is based on the lack of change in their lives.

I think it's just justification in their own minds to assure themselves that they are OK cause they *prayed a prayer*.

I understand that many people are weak and we all start from different places, but after 30 or so years, I expect to see much more Christlike character out of someone than to live a carnal life.

“Paul’s letter to the Corinthians did not make being “carnal” a normative condition. There is no such category as “carnal Christian.”

Paul recognized carnality as a condition that actually existed in the Church.
It is never Gid’s ideal, but it is a reality for some believers.
Paul never describes these believers as losing their salvation.
There are the consequences of loss of rewards and a wasted life.

“Do you think God will allow His true children to live in sin? to live a “carnal” life? to go on sinning, without correcting it?”

Exactly. God chastens only his sons. They remain sons.

“And even in the case of more egregious sin Paul was addressing in Corinth, it was unthinkable that this could continue to go on.”

And yet it did so - that Paul took the next step, allowing the believer to be turned over to Satan with the hope of restoration of fellowship with the church and an obedient life in the future.

“So, yes, even Christians can commit very serious sins. But true, born-again believers can not continue in sin.”

Yet some do.

“Because it is possible for people to be convinced they are “Christian,” but actually be on their way to hell.”

Of course they can. This isn’t germane to the discussion of whether believers can live apart from active fellowship with God.

“Assurance is based in the evidences of being a true believer.”

Assurance is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s total payment of sin.

” It is never based merely on having said a prayer to receive Christ.”

Obviously.

“The test is having fruit, transformation, obedience, continuing in the faith, and an awareness of the indwelling Holy Spirit.”

Bearing fruit via the new Life of Christ inside is normative. It does not rule out times of living apart from God due to sin. Nor is bearing fruit equally in every season normative.

“So I return to my original point. A Christian is not someone who has merely, at some time or another, made some sort of decision for Christ”

Again, obvious, but different point.

“Because it is possible for people to be convinced they are “Christian,” but actually be on their way to hell.”

You seem to be arguing accurately, we’re we discussing the basis of salvation dear FRiend. In this thread, we are discussing the blessed assurance of a true believing Christian.

“People who profess faith in Christ but remain in sin, bear no fruit to God, demonstrate no grief over sin, but stubborn persistence in sin, are headed for hell.”

You can only see the outside, but not whether the Life of Christ is now present in the heart. You can guess and form a judgmental opinion, but god knows and we do not.

“Those who think they are just “carnal Christians” who will just miss out on some rewards but will escape hell because of the fire at the bema judgement need to realize they are LOST and still need to repent and believe the Gospel.”

Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. God knows the truth. We do not.

Best