“Paul’s letter to the Corinthians did not make being “carnal” a normative condition. There is no such category as “carnal Christian.”
Paul recognized carnality as a condition that actually existed in the Church.
It is never Gid’s ideal, but it is a reality for some believers.
Paul never describes these believers as losing their salvation.
There are the consequences of loss of rewards and a wasted life.
“Do you think God will allow His true children to live in sin? to live a “carnal” life? to go on sinning, without correcting it?”
Exactly. God chastens only his sons. They remain sons.
“And even in the case of more egregious sin Paul was addressing in Corinth, it was unthinkable that this could continue to go on.”
And yet it did so - that Paul took the next step, allowing the believer to be turned over to Satan with the hope of restoration of fellowship with the church and an obedient life in the future.
“So, yes, even Christians can commit very serious sins. But true, born-again believers can not continue in sin.”
Yet some do.
“Because it is possible for people to be convinced they are “Christian,” but actually be on their way to hell.”
Of course they can. This isn’t germane to the discussion of whether believers can live apart from active fellowship with God.
“Assurance is based in the evidences of being a true believer.”
Assurance is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s total payment of sin.
” It is never based merely on having said a prayer to receive Christ.”
Obviously.
“The test is having fruit, transformation, obedience, continuing in the faith, and an awareness of the indwelling Holy Spirit.”
Bearing fruit via the new Life of Christ inside is normative. It does not rule out times of living apart from God due to sin. Nor is bearing fruit equally in every season normative.
“So I return to my original point. A Christian is not someone who has merely, at some time or another, made some sort of decision for Christ”
Again, obvious, but different point.
“Because it is possible for people to be convinced they are “Christian,” but actually be on their way to hell.”
You seem to be arguing accurately, we’re we discussing the basis of salvation dear FRiend. In this thread, we are discussing the blessed assurance of a true believing Christian.
“People who profess faith in Christ but remain in sin, bear no fruit to God, demonstrate no grief over sin, but stubborn persistence in sin, are headed for hell.”
You can only see the outside, but not whether the Life of Christ is now present in the heart. You can guess and form a judgmental opinion, but god knows and we do not.
“Those who think they are just “carnal Christians” who will just miss out on some rewards but will escape hell because of the fire at the bema judgement need to realize they are LOST and still need to repent and believe the Gospel.”
Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. God knows the truth. We do not.
Best
“Paul recognized carnality as a condition that actually existed in the Church. It is never [God]’s ideal, but it is a reality for some believers.”
My point may have not been clear. Of course there is such a thing as a Christian acting in a carnal way. But there is a myth of the “carnal Christian.” I shared earlier that Paul clearly states that being a true believer, a true follower of Christ, is being someone who has the Spirit of Christ indwelling them. These are NOT carnal.
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
When Paul described the Corinthians as “carnal” he was describing sin that is uncharacteristic of being a Christian. A Christian can potentially steal, but a thief is not a Christian. A Christian can potentially murder, but a Christian is not a murderer. A Christian can potentially act in a carnal manner, but a Christian is not carnal.
The idea that there is a category of Christians who are carnal is a deception of the Devil who loves to twist scriptures and lead us to destruction.
Christians can commit sins and act in a carnal manner. They can not remain in a state of sin. Those who profess Christ with their mouths but continue living in a state of sin, unrepentant, are NOT true believers. By definition they are NOT followers of Christ.
The worst thing to tell such a false convert is to not worry, they will go to Heaven because they said the sinner’s prayer, or got baptized, or made some other profession of faith. They need to be warned that their works are a denial and repudiation of what they said with their mouths. They are headed for hell, not Heaven.
“Paul never describes these believers as losing their salvation.”
The specific believers who were being carnal, quickly repented when Paul wrote these words to them.
2 Corinthians 7:10-11
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
“There are the consequences of loss of rewards and a wasted life.”
We all are going to lose some rewards, because none of us perfectly follow the example of Christ. This is not a description that applies to someone who repudiates the Gospel message of repentance and obedience by shacking up with his girlfriend and declaring he is just a carnal Christian. He thinks he has fire insurance, but loves sin more than God. Paul says that the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
These are not going to miss out on some “rewards.” The only treasure these have is the wrath of God in hell.
Romans 2:4-5
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.
Do we suppose that merely hearing the Gospel saves someone? Do we think merely admitting it is true, saves? The apostles teach it is better for some if they had never known the way of righteousness, if they subsequently turn away. That’s NOT describing someone who merely has less rewards.
2 Peter 2:21
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 10:28-29
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
I am using strong words because I think this is very urgent for our time, not to berate you or be argumentative. We live in a post-Christian era where many people consider themselves Christian but really need to hear the Gospel and realize they have not yet met the requirements of repentance and faith.
“God chastens only his sons. They remain sons.”
And those who are not corrected from their sins, are not sons. They never were. There are people who profess to be Christians but live wicked lives. I’m sure you are aware of this. It is literally everywhere in our society.
“And yet it did so [i.e. go on]”
Let me clarify. By “go on” I mean for it to continue, which it did not. Yes, it happened. It did not continue. We must not give people false hope of salvation if they continue in their sins. The message to those who continue to murder, steal, commit fornication, worship idols, and so forth, is that they are commanded to repent. Those who do not repent are not going to be in the kingdom of Heaven. Those who are real believers, i.e. those who have the indwelling Spirit of Christ, are going to be unable to remain in their sins. They will be overwhelmed with conviction. They will be troubled in every way until they are restored to fellowship with God. They will not remain stubbornly in rebellion to the commands of Christ. Real believers do not do this.
“Yet some do [continue in sin].”
Not believers who are destined for Heaven. Professing Christians who are in danger of being cast into the lake of fire do. These need to realize they are in danger and repent.
1 John 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
The tense of the verb “sin” in Greek is indicative of continuing sin. John said earlier that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. We know that believers sin. What they do not do is continue in it.
I feel compelled to address this error just as much as the opposite error which is salvation based on our own righteousness.
“This isn’t germane to the discussion of whether believers can live apart from active fellowship with God.”
People are going to hell. Of course it’s germane. It is at the heart of it. The Bible passages that cults use to discredit the doctrine of the security of the believer are still in the Bible. They are in the Bible because they are very important. They are not saying that a child of God can quit being a child of God. But they are warning that not everyone who thinks they are “saved” will turn out to be so. And these desperately need to hear that they are lost and heading to hell. They do NOT need to be placated by a message reassuring them that, since they once professed faith in Christ, they have no worries. They need to worry.
The Bible warns over, and over, and over. We must not trivialize this.
“Assurance is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s total payment of sin.”
You are confusing assurance with security. The believer’s future is secure and can not be lost any more than a believer can remain in sin. It is neither possible for a genuine believer to lose their salvation or remain in sin. They are “kept by the power of God.” God keeps the believer from stumbling rather than enabling a believer to live in sin.
However, assurance can be lost. Assurance comes from getting right with God. Yes, getting right is predicated upon, as you said, “the sufficiency of Christ’s total payment of sin” and not on our own righteousness. But it is not merely the imputation of righteousness that gives us assurance. It is seeing the practical outworking of the salvation Christ accomplished by His indwelling Spirit. We are not witnesses of His resurrection directly. But we are witnesses of what we have seen and heard in our own lives. This transformation results in a believer being assured that they are in fact a believer, destined for Heaven.
1 John 3:19-21
And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
“It does not rule out times of living apart from God due to sin. Nor is bearing fruit equally in every season normative.”
The message to anyone living in sin is to repent. Anyone living in sin has no basis for certainty that they are a child of God, destined for Heaven. I’m not talking about sinning in general. We all sin. But living in sin is something different.
Bearing fruit is the result of abiding in Christ. It is not the result of trying real hard. If we are a branch of a grape vine, and we receive proper sun and water and nutrients from the soil, we will produce grapes. If however, we have a defect, we will not produce grapes. Or, if we are some other kind of plant we will not produce grapes. Those who are grape vines AND abide in Christ will bear fruit. And the vine dresser will prune this fruit so we can produce more. So, yes, there are seasons. But the vine that bears fruit is the one that stays connected to the root. Branches that do not abide in Christ are cut off and thrown into the fire because they do not bear any fruit. These represent professing believers who do not bear fruit. They may be part of the grape vine plant (i.e. church), but they are not truly connected (do not have the Spirit), so they wither as a branch and are unfruitful.
Being fruitful is the mark of a believer. Being unfruitful is the mark of an unbeliever. Some branches bear only a little fruit. Some bear a lot of fruit. All believers will have rewards and treasures in Heaven. Those who bear no fruit will not get into Heaven by “the skin of their teeth.” They will be cast into the fire.
“we’re we discussing the basis of salvation... [and] the blessed assurance of a true believing Christian.”
I don’t think it is possible to broach one subject apart from the other. Again, assurance and security are different things. But the question under discussion is whether a Christian can lose his or her salvation. The answer to that question is based on whether we are discussing how things appear from a human perspective versus God’s perspective.
God chose the elect before the world began. It is impossible for the elect to be eternally lost. The elect are chosen not only to believe, but also to go on believing, to do good works, to continue in the faith, to be kept from stumbling, and to ultimately bear the image of Christ, being perfected at His return. So the elect are secure.
Assurance is about knowing if we are elect. How do we know? We know because He called us. We know because when He called, we believed. We know because we have received His Spirit. We know because we continue to believe. We know because we continue to grow in knowledge and works.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
2 Peter 1:5-11
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
“You can only see the outside, but not whether the Life of Christ is now present in the heart. You can guess and form a judgmental opinion, but [God] knows and we do not.”
I agree, but with some caveats. We can discern and know based on the Biblical test of fruit. It is important to distinguish between believers and unbelievers. How else can we obey the command to not be unequally yoked? Believers should only marry believers. How do we know? And if we know that someone is not a believer, even if they profess to be one, then we know they need to be made aware that they are not a believer. Or, at least they need to be convinced to follow through with their commitment to Christ by continuing in obedience to the commands of Christ.
The purpose of discerning that someone is lost is not to condemn them, but to know that they need to hear the Gospel. At some point in time we were all lost, under the threat of God’s wrath, heading toward hell. If no one saw the need to preach the Gospel to us, then we would not have heard and believed.
Allow me to repeat something I posted earlier in another response. The pattern I see throughout the New Testament is that the Gospel is not just for the lost. It is for those who believe also, so we can continue to be renewed in the spirit of our minds. When we sin, we return to the cross. We confess and repent. We don’t go to some “advanced Christianity.” We go back to the basics: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, all in accordance with the Biblical prophecies. Then He was seen alive again by hundreds of witnesses, which we have a record of in the New Testament. We avail ourselves of the forgiveness, justification, sanctification, and glorification offered to us by repentance and faith.
This message strengthens the weak believer. It helps us grow. But it also is a message for professing believers who have not yet born fruit, who are still living in sin, who may have not really been born again. And perhaps even those who have followed a false Gospel may be brought to repentance. But these need to come to the realization that they did not understand the true Gospel message, or did not properly repent, or did not believe with their whole heart.
Luke 13:6-9
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”
Galatians 4:19
My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you.
I did not intend to make such a long post. I hope I have not overwhelmed you by writing too much. And I hope that I have not come across as condescending. I need to learn as much from my fellow believers as anything that I have to offer to them. Most of my life I have been in error when it comes to seeing “carnal Christianity” as normative. I learned that it is destructive to believers because it can lead to complacency over sin. And it is destructive to unbelievers who think they are already “saved” but continue to live in sin. It is critical for both groups to realize that Christ came to save us from, not just the penalty of sin, but from sin itself.