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To: Salvation
Wow!

Arch-pope starts with the assumption that he prefers, then tries to use the Bible to disprove the opposite.

And this class, is a great demonstration!

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, ...

5 posted on 05/13/2017 6:38:42 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

See #5 for what Calvin, Luther, Zwingli judged to be the answer here.


8 posted on 05/13/2017 6:40:21 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; teeman8r; Salvation
"...introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas..."

Your idea this doctrine of Mary;s ever-virginity consists of Charles Pope's "presuppositions and agendas" needs a little gentle correction.

He derives this doctrine from the doctrine and example (practice) of the early church, which was informed by the instructions of the Apostles and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Liturgy of St. James, which is the earliest known written Liturgy and which came to us from Apostolic times, contains the lines:

"...our all-holy, spotless, exceeding glorious Lady and Ever-Virgin Mary, with all the Saints and just men, let us commend ourselves, and each other, and our lives unto Christ our Lord."

Similar terms (Aeiparthenos, Gr. "ever-virgin") are found in the oldest written manuscripts every ancient liturgy without exception: the Assyrian Church of the East, the Armenian Church, the Coptic (Egyptian) Church, etc. . --- which were not at all culturally "sourced" or dominated by the "Roman" (Latin) Church.

The first Christian on record to claim that Mary had other children was Helvidius (approx. 350 A.D.) Jerome referred to Helvidius's theory as "novel, wicked, and a daring affront to the faith of the whole world". This [judging by Jerome's reaction] was an entirely new interpretation, one nobody had ventured before.

In any case, Helvidius new hypothesis got zero traction with the Apostolic churches, which strongly clung to Apostolic-age doctrines against any theological innovations.

47 posted on 05/13/2017 3:01:14 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("I praise you for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you." - 1 Cor 11:2)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...

The Greeks weren't stupid. They knew what *brother* and *sister* were and had words for them that distinguished them from *cousin* or *relative*.

Nor was the Holy Spirit wrong when HE inspired Scripture and chose to use the words *brother* and *sister*.

He chose those words for a reason.

Psalm 69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.

Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?

Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Strong's Concordance

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

adelphos: a brother

Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: adelphos

Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')

Short Definition: a brother

Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.

http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm

The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.

It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.

It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.

They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.

The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.

And it would not be *cousin*.

The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm

Strong's Concordance

suggenes: akin, a relative

Original Word: συγγενής, ές

Part of Speech: Adjective

Transliteration: suggenes

Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')

Short Definition: akin, a relative

Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.

97 posted on 05/13/2017 7:17:49 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; dragonblustar; ...

Catholics defending to the death that Mary entered a fraudulent marriage with Joseph, one that would earn anyone an annulment so fast your head would spin.

Funny how it’s considered in invalid marriage when the rest of humanity does it, but it’s a badge of honor when Mary does it.

And then Catholics claim what champions of marriage they are and then hold up as the ideal Mary and Joseph.


99 posted on 05/13/2017 7:21:24 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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