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To: Iscool
Not only the LXX, but other Greek translations of the OT as well, use adelphoi (brothers) to express nephews, cousind, and even non-kinship ally relationships. These are all translated from Hebrew.

As for the NT,the originals of the Gospels were probably Koine Greek (though that's disputed with Matthew), and yet broader definitions persist. For instance, in 1 Corinthians,Paul says that Jesus appeared to more than 500 brothers at the same time. These were of course not children of Mary.

James is called the Lord's brother, but the only Jsmeses we know of in Jesus' circle were identified as sons of Alpheus ,Zebedee, or Clopas. But unless I am mistaken, nobody claims that Mary of Nazareth --- Jesus' mother--- was married to Alphaeus, Zebedee, or Clopas.

Matt 27:56 identifies "Mary the mother of James and Joseph" as one of the women who ministered to Jesus, not as His mother. She is evidently the wife of Clopas.

So you have an unresolved problem here, in that the NT authors, who were native Aramaic speakers, continued to often use the term "brothers" the way they used the term in Aramaic, even when they were writing Greek. Jesus did, too, to mean somebody close to you (as in Matt. 5:22-24, 7:3-5, 12:50,18:15, and many other places in the NT. Another example: in the Herod-Herodias marriage, she is said to have been the wife of Herod's brother Philip, but Philip was in fact Herod's half-brother.

The churches at the time were not confused by this, and didn't see any reason why this would refute their conviction about Mary being ever-virgin. It wasn't until the 1500's-1600's that English and German scholars far removed from the cultural and linguistic environment of ancient Judea and Galilee, relied on academic assumptions which sometimes conflicted with vernacular Biblical usage.

272 posted on 05/14/2017 6:34:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (From the peaceful hills of Tennessee.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool
You continue to avoid my posts to you....wondering why...but I think I know why.

James is called the Lord's brother, but the only Jsmeses we know of in Jesus' circle were identified as sons of Alpheus ,Zebedee, or Clopas. But unless I am mistaken, nobody claims that Mary of Nazareth --- Jesus' mother--- was married to Alphaeus, Zebedee, or Clopas.

Patently false information you've posted....and you should know that.

So you have an unresolved problem here, in that the NT authors, who were native Aramaic speakers, continued to often use the term "brothers" the way they used the term in Aramaic, even when they were writing Greek.

Of which you offer zero proof.

The NT authors knew the Kione Greek as it was the business language of the Roman Empire.

The problem is not unresolved as you claim...well, perhaps it is for the Roman Catholic...but not everyone else.

Awaiting your answer to my post.

275 posted on 05/14/2017 6:44:38 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o
For instance, in 1 Corinthians,Paul says that Jesus appeared to more than 500 brothers at the same time. These were of course not children of Mary.

I'm not aware of anyone claiming these to be brothers of Jesus.

The context indicates they are not.

Much as Paul uses ἀδελφοί in Galatians 1:2 to identify fellow believers. No one believes these are his actual brothers. Why? Context.

Matt 27:56 identifies "Mary the mother of James and Joseph" as one of the women who ministered to Jesus, not as His mother. She is evidently the wife of Clopas.

Perhaps you're aware Mary, James and Joseph were fairly common names back in the day.

Jesus did, too, to mean somebody close to you (as in Matt. 5:22-24, 7:3-5, 12:50,18:15, and many other places in the NT.

And again...context, which I'm beginning to believe is a new concept to the Catholic, tells us how to understand "brother" in these verses.

However, these are not the verses in question.

These are the verses we're discussing.

The context of each tells us Jesus had brothers and sisters and they came from Joseph and Mary. Any other understanding defies common reading.

While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. Matt 12:46

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? Matt 13:55

And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matt 13:56

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. Mark 6:3

And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. Luke 8:19

And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." Luke 8:20

After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days John 2:12

Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. John 7:3

For not even His brothers were believing in Him. John 7:5

Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 1 Corinthians 9:5

But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. Galatians 1:19

280 posted on 05/14/2017 7:20:22 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool; Elsie; metmom; MHGinTN; aMorePerfectUnion; af_vet_1981
40One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ). John 1:40-41 NASB

Perhaps Andrew and Simon really weren't "brother" brothers. Just cousins hanging. Maybe even just good buddies. Who knows?

Perhaps Simon was related to someone else from another marriage. /sacr

I mean really, with the logic of the Catholic all bets are off. /sacr

293 posted on 05/14/2017 7:55:03 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool
Not only the LXX, but other Greek translations of the OT as well, use adelphoi (brothers) to express nephews, cousind, and even non-kinship ally relationships. These are all translated from Hebrew.

The OT should be translated from the Hebrew, not the Greek.

Using a translation of a translation will always lead to poor translations.

306 posted on 05/14/2017 8:29:38 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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