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Locked on 05/22/2017 3:39:19 PM PDT by Jim Robinson, reason:
childishness |
Posted on 05/13/2017 6:28:38 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. I know that the Church believes in Mary’s perpetual virginity, but what are we to make of the passages in the Gospel that refer to Jesus’ brothers and sisters?
Rose, via email
A. There are a number of places in the New Testament (see Mk 3:31-34; 6:3; Mt 12:46; 13:55; Lk 8:19-20; Jn 2:12; 7:3-10; Acts 1:14; and 1 Cor 9:5) where Jesus’ kinsfolk are mentioned using terms such as “brother” (adelphos), “sister” (adelphe) or “brethren” (adelphoi). But “brother” has a wider meaning both in the Scriptures and at the time they were written. It is not restricted to our literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother in the sense of sibling.
Even in the Old Testament “brother” had a wide range of meaning. In the Book of Genesis, for example, Lot is called Abraham’s brother (see 14:14), but his father was Haran — Abraham’s brother (Gn 11:26-28). So, Lot was actually a nephew of Abraham.
The term “brother” could also refer widely to friends or mere political allies (see 2 Sm 1:26; Am 1:9). Thus, in family relationships, “brother” could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended. We use words like kinsmen and cousins today, but the ancient Jews did not.
In fact, neither Hebrew nor Aramaic had a word meaning “cousin.” They used terms such as “brother,” “sister” or, more rarely, “kin” or “kinsfolk” (syngenis) — sometimes translated as “relative” in English.
James, for example, whom St. Paul called the “brother of the Lord” (Gal 1:19), is identified by Paul as an apostle and is usually understood to be James the Younger. But James the Younger is elsewhere identified as the son of Alphaeus (also called Clopas) and his wife, Mary (see Mt 10:3; Jn 19:25). Even if James the Greater were meant by St. Paul, it is clear that he is from the Zebedee family, and not a son of Mary or a brother of Jesus (in the strict modern sense) at all.
The early Church was aware of the references to Jesus’ brethren, but was not troubled by them, teaching and handing on the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This is because the terms referring to Jesus’ brethren were understood in the wider, more ancient sense. Widespread confusion about this began to occur after the 16th century with the rise of Protestantism and the loss of understanding the semantic nuances of ancient family terminology.
After Jesus cured the man with a withered hand and then chose the Twelve disciples:
Mark 3: 20-21 HIS RELATIVES ARE CONCERNED ABOUT JESUS
“He went home again, and once more such a crowd collected that they could not even have a meal.
When His relatives heard of this, they set out to take charge of Him, convinced He was out of His mind.”
Jesus’ family did not understand what was going on. Even His cousin, John the Baptist, doubted He was Messiah when John was in jail.
This is why Jesus said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple”
Mary worship is bogus and wrong. And she would be the first to say so.
Well we are both ex Catholics, and I used to feel the same way. How dare those bad non Catholics disagree with my OTC. The nerve of them.
These same threads pop up regularly, and then the fight is ON. Don't know why though. I just want to know what their plan of salvation is. I never seem to get any takers. 😀
While the Hebrew and Aramaic may or may not have a word for blood brother and sister, the Greek language DOES...The Greek language also has a separate word for COUSIN...And now we know why your religion makes the false claim that the scriptures were written in Aramaic and not Greek...
Context is indeed my friend, unless you believe that Jesus stops reigning after His enemies are under His feet.
Jesus DOES stop reigning after he puts all of his enemies under his feet...
Why don't you guys borrow a bible from someone and read the actual verses???
Arrogantly mindreading again huh Salvation?
Joseph and Mary honored their marriage blessed by God.
They followed God’s rules of marriage and had sex and children. Period
For shame.
Now tell them that Jesus is the Word.
That’s in the Gospel of John.
Does your Bible have that book in it?
It’s right after Luke in the New Testament
His siblings were not saved yet so he put His mother in John’s care.
Don’t question the wisdom of Jesus.
Nor the sanctity of marriage.
God told Joseph to take Mary as his wife.
I think you know what that means but I can ex plain it to you if you want.
I am a trained Christian counselor.
Why??? She was betrothed to a husband already...Bible says it was the Holy Ghost that came upon her...The Holy Spirit is a Spirit...God overshadowed the operation...God is a Spirit...They don't even have any DNA...
They didn't even have a wedding...They never held hands or even kissed...Mary had never met the Father or the Holy Spirit...They had no relationship...They certainly did not have sex...
Jesus was not a gift to Mary...Jesus was a gift to Israel...And he wasn't recognized as a gift til he was 30 years old...
And apparently Mary forgot about the unusual conception of Jesus or she did believe God...Obviously Jesus' supernatural beginning was never discussed in the household of Mary and Joseph since Jesus had grown to a young lad when he told his mother he was going about his Father's business and Mary said, 'huh, What are you talking about'??? Doesn't sound like any fidelity to a Ghost to me...
It's also called necromancy.
Yep. I pray the Lord bless and keep all the Catholics who really believe in Him.
Then why does the Catholic church teach that it's so and why do Catholics have an absolute meltdown at the thought that she wasn't?
And Scripture DOES tell us she wasn't always a virgin.
The angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary AS HIS WIFE. That means he was her HUSBAND and that comes with all the responsibilities, and privileges of being a husband.
And it does say that he did not know her until AFTER she had given birth. In that case, the word *after* indicates that *until* has the clear meaning of something changed.
Not to mention that Jesus brothers *adelphos* , are referred to in Scripture BY NAME.
There is certainly a far stronger case for her NOT remaining a virgin than for her to have remained one.
So as I've asked before and not gotten an answer to, why is it so critical that Mary be a perpetual virgin?
What possible difference could it make in relation to our salvation?
It's not required by prophecy. It doesn't change anything about Jesus or what He did.
Amen bro.
Nonsense.
I'm sure Mary was a godly woman.
One can be faithful to God and still engage in normal marital sex.
The one that tells us that the angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary as his WIFE and that he held off sex until AFTER Jesus was born.
The one that tells us this....
Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...
Psalm69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
Strong's Concordance
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
adelphos: a brother
Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: adelphos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')
Short Definition: a brother
Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.
Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.
http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm
The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.
It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.
It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.
They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.
The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.
And it would not be *cousin*.
The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm
Strong's Concordance
suggenes: akin, a relative
Original Word: συγγενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: suggenes
Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')
Short Definition: akin, a relative
Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.
Mormonism also teaches that Jesus and Lucifer aka Satan, are half brothers, fathered by Jesus who sired them by sex with his many spirit wives.
God had sex with Mary and fathered Jesus and God had sex with another spirit wife and fathered Lucifer.
Also, according to what I’ve heard, supposedly a Mormon woman’s ideal is to be eternally pregnant by her spirit husband.
Now if that alone is not enough to send any sane woman running off screaming for the hills, I don’t know what is.
Baloney.
Mary is not Jesus.
If Catholics are going to claim that the sign in heaven in Revelation 12 is indeed Mary, then they HAVE to admit that she delivered in the normal human manner because John tells us that she cried out in anguish or travail as she gave birth.
And since pain in childbirth is part of the curse from the fall, then that is another piece of evidence that Mary was a normal human sinner like the rest of us.
The churches of Crete and Cyprus and Antioch and Jerusalem were all founded before 100 AD.
Yeah, the churches were founded then. So what about it? What does it prove relating to the claims of Mary's perpetual virginity?
The first Christian on record to claim that Mary had other children was Matthew, followed by Mark, John, and Paul.
ALL who predated the EFC by MANY years.
Matter of fact, the personally met the Incarnate Jesus Himself.
None of the Four Evangelists says Jesus had brothers by Mary, i.e. sons other than Jesus, who were borne by Mary. That is the point in dispute.
Nobody--- as you know --- disputes the fact that Jesus had brethren in the sense of near kinsmen.
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