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To: af_vet_1981
Do you agree that The beggar Lazarus, the unnamed rich man, and “Father Abraham” were real men and not a fable concocted for the Pharisees ?

I am still awaiting your proof that they were real and these events happened - as you claim.

I do not need to disprove your truth claim, since real or parable, they do not demonstrate prayer.

I leave you to wallow in redefining words and trying to pass off a conversation as prayer.

295 posted on 05/01/2017 6:19:16 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I am still awaiting your proof that they were real and these events happened - as you claim.

Allow me to address this diversion (since parable or not, there is no prayer being made to Heaven here).

1. While in some discourses the Lord only taught in parables, (All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Matthew 13:34), and Lk. 15 and 16 contain such, yet this does not necessarily mean that all the illustrations used were necessarily only didactic fiction, and could not refer to real persons or events. Unlike the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7) the story of Luke 16:19-31 is not called a parable 9though that lack itself does not mean it is not). 2. However, in no parable are any actual names mentioned, whereas in Lk. 16:19-31 we have two individuals named.

3. Most significantly, parables are true-to-life stories in which a know earthly realities are used which correspond to spiritual realities, but which never use science fiction. But in Luke 16:19-31 we have a story of a man who is conscious after death and in torments in a real place, which is contrary to what annihilationists believe and who deny the literal character of this story (such try to make this account into being a parable in which the beggar represents the contrite Gentile believers and the rich man represents the Pharisaical Jews), and thus a man who is conscious after death and in torments would be science fiction.

4. Even if one believes in eternal torment, making the two parties here to be representative of Gentiles and Jews is strained, and while they do represent the saved versus the lost (whom Luke elsewhere describes as being materially over-indulgent and complacent), yet i think it is too detailed (and in its details) to merely be a parable.

As another commentator states,

a parable must be a true-to-life story in order for it to have any meaning to those who hear it. To try to use a fanciful story containing elements that have no basis to the world in which men and women live would only serve to confuse people rather than providing them with spiritual light. ..

When we come to the account of the rich man and Lazarus, we find a situation different from what is found in any of the parables....

The hearers of this story could follow the contrast between these two men right up to the moment of their deaths. At that point, however, the situation changes drastically. The outcome was something that they could not relate to any life situations that they had ever witnessed. The state and location of the departed soul was beyond their life experiences, or what is commonly known to be true by experience. The circumstances described go beyond the realm of the parable. That does not mean that it isn’t a true-to-life story, however. Physical death is a natural part of the life experience of all mankind, but what takes place afterward is hidden from those who have not yet experienced it. In this account of a beggar and a rich man, the Lord was revealing the reality of what takes place following physical death to drive home an important truth. We should mention at this point that even if it was a parable, the place referred to as Abraham’s bosom and the account of what took place in there would have to be based on reality for it to have any meaning.

Following are some reasons that this should be considered a history of two real men and not a parable.

  1. Parables are true-to-life, but hypothetical, illustrative stories. The names of specific individuals are never given in them, but here the names of three men are given; Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses. Also mentioned are the “prophets” who were also real people. (“Moses and the prophets” is a general term for the whole Old Testament that refers to its human authors).
  2. It does not have the normal form of a parable with an introduction, analogy story, and application. Instead it is in the form of the narration of a real-life story given for the purpose of illustration.
  3. It does not use the principle of comparison in a way that is characteristic of parables.
  4. The discussion between the rich man and Abraham is not consistent with the parabolic style found in the Scriptures.
  5. It seems obvious that in relating this particular story when He did, the Lord Jesus was using a real-life account that many of those listening to Him that day could readily relate to it because they actually knew, or at least knew of, the two men involved. The rich man’s brothers may have even been in the audience.

    More : https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1619-31/


298 posted on 05/01/2017 7:43:06 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I am still awaiting your proof that they were real and these events happened - as you claim.

I do not need to disprove your truth claim, since real or parable, they do not demonstrate prayer.


And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there. Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verses twelve to thirty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

348 posted on 05/01/2017 6:57:41 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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