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Posted on 03/13/2017 8:58:52 AM PDT by ebb tide
Two trials, two appeals to conscience.
Trial 1: I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen.
Trial 2: If the number of bishops and universities should be so material as your lordship seems to think, then I see little cause, my lord, why that should make any change in my conscience. For I have no doubt that, though not in this realm, but of all those well learned bishops and virtuous men that are yet alive throughout Christendom, they are not fewer who are of my mind therein. But if I should speak of those who are already dead, of whom many are now holy saints in heaven, I am very sure it is the far greater part of them who, all the while they lived, thought in this case the way that I think now. And therefore am I not bound, my lord, to conform my conscience to the council of one realm against the General Council of Christendom.
What is the difference of these two quotes?
The first, from the friar Martin Luther, asserts the primacy of conscience over the universal consent of the Church and the tradition.
The second, from a laymen Thomas More, notes the agreement of conscience to the faith of Christendom, the history of the Church, and the saints of Heaven.
Why are these appeals to conscience significant? I think Belloc is fundamentally correct in his assessment of the nature of Protestantism as a denial of religious authority, resting in a visible Church:
The Protestant attack differed from the rest especially in this characteristic, that its attack did not consist in the promulgation of a new doctrine or of a new authority, that it made no concerted attempt at creating a counter-Church, but had for its principle the denial of unity. It was an effort to promote that state of mind in which a “Church” in the old sense of the word-that is, an infallible, united, teaching body, a Person speaking with Divine authority-should be denied; not the doctrines it might happen to advance, but its very claim to advance them with unique authority.
The individual quickly emerged to fill the vacuum left by the Church, as the dominant religious factor in the modern period.
Martin Luther: Revolutionary, Not Reformer In this year of the five hundredth anniversary of the Reformation, we have to take stock of the legacy of the renegade, Catholic priest, Martin Luther. What were his intentions? It is commonly alleged, even among Catholics, that he had the noble aim of reforming abuses within the Church.
In fact, Martin Luther discovered his revolutionary, theological positions about a year before he posted his 95 theses. Probably in the year 1516, while lecturing on Romans at the seminary in Wittenburg, Luther had a pivotal experience, which shaped the way he viewed the Christian faith. Essentially, his “tower experience,” resolved his difficulty of conscience. He saw God and His commandments as a moral threat:
But I, blameless monk that I was, felt that before God I was a sinner with an extremely troubled conscience. I couldn’t be sure that God was appeased by my satisfaction. I did not love, no, rather I hated the just God who punishes sinners. In silence, if I did not blaspheme, then certainly I grumbled vehemently and got angry at God. I said, “Isn’t it enough that we miserable sinners, lost for all eternity because of original sin, are oppressed by every kind of calamity through the Ten Commandments? Why does God heap sorrow upon sorrow through the Gospel and through the Gospel threaten us with his justice and his wrath?” This was how I was raging with wild and disturbed conscience. I constantly badgered St. Paul about that spot in Romans 1 and anxiously wanted to know what he meant.
Reading Romans 1, while in the tower of his monastery, Luther suddenly saw the resolution of his troubled conscience through faith: “All at once I felt that I had been born again and entered into paradise itself through open gates. Immediately I saw the whole of Scripture in a different light.”
As we see in Trent’s teaching on justification and the Joint Declaration of Faith, there is nothing wrong with the realization that righteousness (same word as justification) comes through faith alone, moved by the grace of God. The problem is the re-reading of Scripture and all of the Christian tradition in a different light through this realization. Luther’s troubled conscience and experience of faith led him eventually (as it took him a while to work it out) to reject many of the Sacraments, books of the Bible, and the Church’s authority all in the name of liberty of conscience. A great schism would follow from Luther’s personal experience.
The Significance of Luther’s Teaching on Conscience No doubt reforms were needed in the Catholic Church in 1517. Contrary to popular opinion however, Luther primarily sought to spread his understanding of the Gospel, not to correct abuses. Catholic practices became abuses precisely because they contradicted his tower experience of 1516.
One of Luther’s early tracts, Appeal to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation (1520), lays out the implications of his view in more detail:
Besides, if we are all priests, as was said above, and all have one faith, one Gospel, one sacrament, why should we not also have the power to test and judge what is correct or incorrect in matters of faith? What becomes of the words of Paul in I Corinthians 2:15: “He that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man,” II Corinthians 4:13: “We have all the same Spirit of faith”? Why, then, should not we perceive what squares with faith and what does not, as well as does an unbelieving pope?
All these and many other texts should make us bold and free, and we should not allow the Spirit of liberty, as Paul calls Him, to be frightened off by the fabrications of the popes, but we ought to go boldly forward to test all that they do or leave undone, according to our interpretation of the Scriptures, which rests on faith, and compel them to follow not their own interpretation, but the one that is better….
Thus I hope that the false, lying terror with which the Romans have this long time made our conscience timid and stupid, has been allayed.
Luther never condoned license (though he did condone Philip of Hesse’s bigamy), as he said his conscience was captive to the Word of God, but he did separate the decision of his conscience from the authority of the Church. This proved absolutely foundational for Protestantism and modern, religious experience.
Father of the Modern World The claim that Luther stands at a crucial moment between medieval Christendom and the modern world is not contentious. This is need for care, however. His separation of faith and reason and insistence on the spiritual nature of the Church, in my opinion, did quicken the advance to secularism. However, Luther did not directly intend the creation of the modern, secular world as know it. Yet his stand on conscience and his individualistic interpretation of faith did lend itself to modern individualism, which I would even say is the heart of modern culture.
Cardinal Ratzinger suggested that Luther stood at the forefront of the modern movement, focused on the freedom of the individual. I recommend looking at this piece, “Truth and Freedom” further, but his central insight on Luther follows:
There is no doubt that from the very outset freedom has been the defining theme of that epoch which we call modern…. Luther’s polemical writing [On the Freedom of the Christian] boldly struck up this theme in resounding tones…. At issue was the freedom of conscience vis-à-vis the authority of the Church, hence the most intimate of all human freedoms…. Even if it would not be right to speak of the individualism of the Reformation, the new importance of the individual and the shift in the relation between individual conscience and authority are nonetheless among its dominant traits (Communio 23 [1996]: 20).
These traits have survived and at times predominate our contemporary religious experience. The sociologist, Christian Smith, has noted in his study of the faith life of emerging adults, Souls in Transition, that an evangelical focus on individual salvation has been carried over into a new religious autonomy. He claims that…
the places where today’s emerging adults have taken that individualism in religion basically continues the cultural trajectory launched by Martin Luther five centuries ago and propelled along the way by subsequent development of evangelical individualism, through revivalism, evangelism and pietism…. Furthermore, the strong individualistic subjectivism in the emerging adult religious outlook—that “truth” should be decided by “what seems right” to individuals, based on their personal experience and feelings—also has deep cultural-structural roots in American evangelicalism.
Luther’s legacy clearly points toward individualism in religion, setting up a conflict with religious authority and tradition. The average Western Christian probably follows his central assertion that one must follow one’s own conscience over and against the Church.
Luther’s View of Conscience in the Catholic Church The key issue in debating Luther’s legacy on conscience in the Catholic Church entails whether the teachings of the Church are subordinate to one’s own conscience or whether conscience is bound by the teaching of the Church.
I know an elderly Salesian priest who told me with all sincerity that the purpose of Vatican II was to teach us that we could decide what to believe and how to live according to our conscience. This is clearly the “Spirit of Vatican II,” as Gaudium et Spes, while upholding the dignity of conscience, enjoins couples in regards to the transmission of life: “But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church’s teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel” (50). Dignitatis Humanae, Vatican’s Declaration on Religious Liberty, holds together two crucial points, stating that one cannot “be forced to act in a manner contrary to his conscience,” (3) as well as that “in the formation of their consciences, the Christian faithful ought carefully to attend to the sacred and certain doctrine of the Church” (14). The Council upheld the dignity of conscience as well as its obligation to accept the authority of the Church.
The misinterpretation of the Council’s teaching on conscience as license found its first test case just three years after the Council closed in Humanae Vitae. Theologians such as Bernard Härring and Charles Curran advocated for the legitimacy of dissent from the encyclical on the grounds of conscience. The Canadian Bishops, in their Winnipeg Statement, affirmed: “In accord with the accepted principles of moral theology, if these persons have tried sincerely but without success to pursue a line of conduct in keeping with the given directives, they may be safely assure that, whoever honestly chooses that course which seems right to him does so in good conscience.”
Conscience also stands at the center of the current controversy over the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia. I’ve already written on how Amoris stands in relation to the Church’s efforts to inculturate the modern world in relation to conscience. Cardinal Caffarra claimed that the fifth dubium on conscience was the most important. He stated further: “Here, for me, is the decisive clash between the vision of life that belongs to the Church (because it belongs to divine Revelation) and modernity’s conception of one’s own conscience.” Recently, the German bishops, following those of Malta, have decided: “We write that—in justified individual cases and after a longer process—there can be a decision of conscience on the side of the faithful to receive the Sacraments, a decision which must be respected.”
In light of the current controversy on conscience, it is troubling that Luther is now upheld as genuine reformer. The most troubling is from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity in its Resources for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity and throughout the year 2017: “Separating that which is polemical from the theological insights of the Reformation, Catholics are now able to hear Luther’s challenge for the Church of today, recognising him as a ‘witness to the gospel’ (From Conflict to Communion 29). And so after centuries of mutual condemnations and vilification, in 2017 Lutheran and Catholic Christians will for the first time commemorate together the beginning of the Reformation.” The Vatican also announced a commemorative stamp (which to me sounds like the United States issuing a stamp commemorating the burning the White House by British troops).
Pope Francis has spoken of Luther several times in the past year, including in an inflight press conference returning from Armenia: “I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct.” In response I ask, what did Luther reform? Francis pointed to two things in his journey to Sweden. The Reformation “helped give greater centrality to sacred scripture in the Church’s life,” but it did so by advocating the flawed notion of sola scriptura. Francis also pointed to Luther’s concept of sola gratia, which “reminds us that God always takes the initiative, prior to any human response, even as he seeks to awaken that response.” While the priority of God’s initiative is true and there are similarities to Catholic teaching in this teaching (that faith is a free gift that cannot be merited), Luther denied our cooperation with grace, our ability to grow in sanctification and merit, and that we fall from grace through mortal sin. Francis also noted, while speaking to an ecumenical delegation from Finland: “In this spirit, we recalled in Lund that the intention of Martin Luther 500 years ago was to renew the Church, not divide Her.” Most recently he spoke of how we now know “how to appreciate the spiritual and theological gifts that we have received from the Reformation.”
It is true that Martin Luther did not want to divide the Church. He wanted to reform the Church on his own terms, which was not genuine reform. Luther said he would follow the Pope if the Pope taught the pure Gospel of his conception: “The chief cause that I fell out with the pope was this: the pope boasted that he was the head of the Church, and condemned all that would not be under his power and authority; for he said, although Christ be the head of the Church, yet, notwithstanding, there must be a corporal head of the Church upon earth. With this I could have been content, had he but taught the gospel pure and clear, and not introduced human inventions and lies in its stead.” Further he accuses the corruption of conscience by listening to the Church as opposed to Scripture: “But the papists, against their own consciences, say, No; we must hear the Church.” This points us back to the crucial issue of authority, pointed out by Belloc.
Conclusion: More Over Luther We should not celebrate the Reformation, because we cannot celebrate the defense of erroneous conscience held up against the authority of the Church. As St. Thomas More rightly said in his “Dialogue on Conscience,” taken down by his daughter Meg: “But indeed, if on the other side a man would in a matter take away by himself upon his own mind alone, or with some few, or with never so many, against an evident truth appearing by the common faith of Christendom, this conscience is very damnable.” He may have had Luther in mind.
More did not stand on his own private interpretation of the faith, but rested firmly on the authority of Christendom and, as Chesterton put it, the democracy of the dead: “But go we now to them that are dead before, and that are I trust in heaven, I am sure that it is not the fewer part of them that all the time while they lived, thought in some of the things, the way that I think now.”
More is a crucial example of standing firm in a rightly formed conscience. We should remember why he died and not let his witness remain in vain. He stood on the ground of the Church’s timeless teaching, anchored in Scripture and the witness of the saints. If we divorce conscience from authority, we will end in moral chaos. As Cardinal Ratzinger asked in his lucid work, On Conscience: “Does God speak to men in a contradictory manner? Does He contradict Himself? Does He forbid one person, even to the point of martyrdom, to do something that He allows or even requires of another?” These are crucial questions we must face.
Rather than celebrating the defender of erroneous conscience, let’s remember and invoke the true martyr of conscience, who died upholding the unity of the faith.
“Well...?”
Well what? Saul, Judas....
>>Does the Holy Spirit guide the college of cardinals in selecting the new pope?<<
Not asking about Saul or Judas.
Asking a direct question you should be able to answer with either yes or no.
No. We have art.
LOL!
You keep thinking that the idols of Mary in roman catholic churches aren't idols.
You keep thinking that kneeling before these idols isn't worship.
Catholics have indeed assigned supernatural powers to Mary.
The writings of a lot of catholic writers you somehow don't seem to think are important to know about indicate otherwise.
You're so far into the lie you don't even recognize it and even if you did I'm not sure you'd admit it.
Examples of Catholics lying:
You must be baptized to be saved.
If you ever were a Catholic, you always are a Catholic.
If you are baptized by Catholicism, you are branded for life. It leaves a mark on you that can not ever be removed.
Jesus was a Catholic.
The Catholic church started 2000 years ago.
The Catholic church started 2012 years ago.
Every living person must be to subject to the pope.
Mary was sinless.
You must be a member of the Catholic church to be saved.
There are many more examples of lies by Catholics.
I’ve also read The Harbinger, and believe that what has been brought out about 9/11’s connection to Isaiah 9 is the work of God.
I hadn’t heard of the other books you mentioned but did quickly look at “My Descent into Death” and will look at the others.
I know of some other testimonies, though.
Here’s the testimony of a Christian man named Ronald Reagan (not the President):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ3IRZMB-rc
Another two books are “A Divine Revelation of Hell” and “A Divine Revelation of Heaven.”
I saw you mentioned to someone else here that you are reading a site by Vassula Ryan. I’d heard of her, and she is considered a false teacher not just by Protestants but also by Catholics.
There’s a point often made by Christians. People who are trained to spot counterfeit money begin by learning the characteristics of real money. You have to know all you can about the truth to spot the counterfeits.
Just because someone or some group makes a spiritual or even supernatural claim doesn’t mean that it’s true or from God. Whatever is from God will uphold His truth. In one of John’s letters, we’re told to “test the spirits,” to see if they’re from God or not. Satan can also appear as an angel of light, and the Bible says he is able to perform deceptive signs and wonders. There is also the realm of the demonic. It’s possible there is some supernatural power there, although it wouldn’t exist if God didn’t permit it.
“The Harbinger” and “A Divine Revelation of Hell” have both been questioned by some Christians, who believe they aren’t faithful to God’s Word, but to this point they’ve seemed to me to be faithful in every major way, though in some details they may reflect the human imperfection of the authors. They are a far cry from books that are clearly heretical.
I saw you also mention here that perhaps Protestants don’t believe in the supernatural. That simply isn’t true. We believe in miracles and the supernatural power of God.
Now, on what you say about the Bible, what do you remember of it? Were there some parts you read more than others?
“You must be baptized to be saved.”
Not a lie. Mark 16:16
“If you ever were a Catholic, you always are a Catholic.”
Not a lie.
“If you are baptized by Catholicism, you are branded for life. It leaves a mark on you that can not ever be removed.”
Not a lie. Ephesians 4:5
“Jesus was a Catholic.”
Jesus was a Jew, but He founded the Catholic Church.
“The Catholic church started 2000 years ago.”
Not a lie. Jesus founded that Catholic Church almost 2,000 year ago.
“The Catholic church started 2012 years ago.”
Who claims that since that would be around A.D. 5? Is math something else you failed?
“Every living person must be to subject to the pope.”
Only in regard to the order of the Church and the salvation Christ dispenses through it. Thus, not a lie.
“Mary was sinless.”
Not a lie. She was.
“You must be a member of the Catholic church to be saved.”
Not a lie, but must be understood according to CCC 847.
“There are many more examples of lies by Catholics.”
You didn’t list one. Not even one.
I knew you would fail. There was no other possibility. Again, at my profile page there is a link to an anti-Catholic being exposed for OBJECTIVELY LYING. There’s no interpretation to it. There’s no opinion to it. He admitted it when caught (after repeatedly denying it). I have never seen a Catholic to anything like that here, EVER.
And there were many translations that were approved by the Catholic church that contained errors. Let's not lose sight of what you asked and I answered.
Don’t forget the never-ending and oft-disputed claim “Luther removed books from the Bible”. That lie always pops up like some kind of trump card. Do you think if the same poster repeats the same lie even after being shown the facts makes him a liar?
Or the "catholic" church gave us the Bible!
Not a lie. She was.
Luke and Paul and the NT say otherwise.
No, I KNOW kneeling is kneeling. It isn’t worship in itself. If kneeling were worship in in itself then asking a woman to marry you would be worshiping a false god.
Your example fails.
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9 NASB
Syncro chose not to list them nor did he ever say he would list all of the lies catholics have told and continue to tell.
Yet somehow you equate that as failure.
Man, was I ever right about you. Normal rules of debate and conversation cannot be applied in dealing with you.
I think Zuriel nailed you perfectly in his post 282.
>>During playground recess, when I was in elementary school, there was this kid that was always trying to change the rules before, or even during the games.<<
I have never seen a Catholic to anything like that here, EVER.
You repeat the lie that you've never seen a catholic lie.
You've made a number of lies on your on post...but you don't realize it nor would you admit to it.
Fwiw, it might be more accurate to speak for yourself alone, rather than to speak for "we" all in such a sweeping generalization.
I am speaking of actual people I personally know who claim a Protestant belief in God, in Jesus, and pray to Him before meals, throughout the day and before they go to sleep, and that is what they tell me.
You may be very far along with your faith and understanding, and are right about the official position of believers, but it's probably not wise to speak on other's behalf unless you know.
We are where we are with things, each and all, and it's difficult to speak for everyone and retain one's credibility. Just sayin'...
"I saw you mentioned to someone else here that you are reading a site by Vassula Ryan. I’d heard of her, and she is considered a false teacher not just by Protestants but also by Catholics."
I believe you meant "Vassula Ryden" and I have mixed reactions to her and her work.
I actually have read True Life In God and Heaven is Real, But So Is Hell (which I read before TLIG) and I also get the daily emails as well.
As a reader, I read True Life In God as though it is what it says it is and I've personally had that experience with the material.
Giving it the "by their fruits" test in my own life and experience, I've had a confirming experience in that regard and I tend to believe it is accurate and true more than I do my own understanding or preconceived beliefs.
Again, as with many things in life, it's better to do one's own research.
There is a lot of "fake news" out there regarding all things, but especially those involving religion and politics.
Believe what you will. I offer this: What does the Church say?
Thanks for the testimonies you've offered! I have an open mind about how God works in our world, in these times and in our lives, my own included.
My dad, otoh, was more atheistic in his thinking and had a strong hatred for preachers and priests, who only came to him at his work asking for donations, as well as having an intense dislike for the holier than thous in his life and in history.
It's kinda funny how when my parents moved to Florida to retire, a preacher moved in next door.
Naturally, Dad remained true to nature, in and out of their backyard pool, which explained the new tall hedges the neighbor planted soon after he moved in.
Toward the end of dad's life, we would have discussions about whether or not God exists or if there is an afterlife, a heaven or hell.
I didn't have anything I could offer him that would satisfy his rational mind's need for hard proof. I had my own belief, but to prove a supernatural God's existence to him was not in my ability. His life experience was too strong.
After he passed, I read The Harbinger, which might have intrigued him, given how it tied the supernatural God so closely to our here and now and the Scriptures.
Speaking of...I wonder what he would have thought of this:
The Foundations Of The Earth Will Rock
September 11, 1991
Next, I found the stories of people who had Near Death Experiences (NDEs), one of which, My Descent into Death, I included in that short book list.
I think those personal stories/testimonies would also have intrigued him and perhaps opened his mind and heart even more to God. He mellowed out quite a bit in retirement.
For me, the Trinitarian God is beyond my understanding and I don't want to and can't put Him into a finite box.
Between the Protestant or Catholic boxes, I have come to believe the Catholic box contains a deeper understanding of Him, Heaven, the Heavenly Family and Heaven's hierarchy, Purgatory and Hell, than the Protestant box.
However, the Church's organizational hierarchy, much like the US GovCo's and practically every other you can name in and of this world, has been corrupted in these times of apostasy and rebellion.
I definitely believe if these times aren't cut short, none will survive them.
Fortunately for us, these are also the times of His Grace and Mercy, which I believe the work Vassula Ryden and others are doing is a part of.
Of course, as with all things, Ymmv...
You post another lie yet you don't see it nor will you admit it.
By your definition, then for you, and a whole lot of other catholics, you god is anti-protestant...you worship him here at FR everyday.
Your starting to sound very childish and are reaching for straws.
No, they don’t. They never once say Mary sinned. Not even once.
All have sinned....that includes Mary, me and you.
Yes...it's the intention and kneeling is part of worship.
And by the catholics actions they are worshiping Mary. The idols of her, the prayers to her, calling her to help with salvation, saying we can only enter Heaven through Mary, saying no one is delivered or preserved from the world wide snares of Satan except through Mary, calling her mediatrix, co-redemptrix and say the roman catholic is worshiping Mary.
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