"Mind-boggling Stuff of Nightmare": Fr. Brian Harrison on Pope's Proselytism Comments

Remnant Newspaper ^ | November 28,, 2016 | Fr. Brian Harrison, O.S

[ebb tide]

"Proselytism among Christians, therefore, in itself, is a grave sin,” said Pope Francis.

The journalist then asked, “Why?”

“Because it contradicts the very dynamic of how to become and to remain Christian,” he said. “The Church is not a soccer team that goes around seeking fans.”

It would be hard to conceive of a more superficial, more puerile, remark on relations with other Christian denominations. How much lower can the papacy sink - in terms of both cheap jibes that demean and dishonor the supreme office of Christ's Vicar on earth (lambasting an opposing position with a crude straw-man caricature that would discredit a junior high schooler) and outright heterodoxy?

The American left is currently urging the Electoral College to hand the White House to Hillary on the grounds that Trump is "manifestly unfit to be President". Dare we hope that the scarlet-clad Eminences of the Church's own Electoral College will soon declare Francis "manifestly unfit to be Pope"?

I mean . . . Trying to help non-Catholic Christians, by reasoned argument and apologetics, to recognize and embrace the fullness of revealed truth - and for Francis, that certainly qualifies as "proselytism" - is now to be condemned as sin? And indeed, grave sin? Even though Vatican Council II (to which the Holy Father professes his full adherence) clearly restates that all have a moral duty to seek, embrace and hold fast to this truth of the Catholic Church (cf. Dignitatis Humanae, #1)? Even though the Council (Lumen Gentium, #14) and the Catechism (#846) reaffirm the dogma "Outside the Church there is no salvation", explaining it to mean that those who recognize the Catholic Church as embodying the true religion, yet refuse to enter or remain in her, cannot be saved?

I myself am a convert from Presbyterianism. Prompted by the aforesaid conciliar teaching, I became a Catholic in order to save my soul. The Catholic faith I have professed now for 42 years is the most precious gift I have received. And now the head of Christ's Catholic Church on earth, no less, is telling me that those Catholics who by personal conversation and written argument helped persuade me to abandon my Protestant heresies and embrace the fullness of revealed truth were thereby committing grave sin? And he's justifying this excoriation of convert-seeking with a vapid "explanation" that explains nothing ("Because it contradicts the very dynamic of how to become and to remain Christian”)?

How many previous Successors of Peter must be rolling in their graves at such comments! This, coming from a pope, is . . . outrageous. Mind-boggling. Unspeakable. Incredible. The stuff of nightmare. It is calling good evil, and by implication, evil good. Sorry, I can't find adequate words here, so will simply give up seeking them and sign off.

[boatbums]

If we believe we possess the entire truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, wouldn't we want to share that truth with others? That seems to make perfect sense to me. Call it "proselytism" if you want, with all the negative connatations which have been attached to that word but to me, it's simply sharing the truth. What does not make sense to me, is believing that one possesses the truth and not wanting to share it.

Of course, but I'm not talking about those who are truly lost and without Christ. Certainly there is such a thing as the "entire truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and the question, then, is who knows it and HOW do they know it? I believe the truth of the Gospel is found in God's sacred word - it is His assurance to us that we are not left to the whims of men who may or may not have the best of intentions. We CAN know the truth because God TOLD it to us. We also have the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us into all truth when we seek to know it.

I don't know how familiar you are with Protestant denominations but the majority of them started out having very little that separated one from the other. Most differences were not doctrinal but organizational, liturgical, traditions or church governance. Not every self-named Christian denomination is necessarily Christian, either, but must be based on those major historical tenets that define Christianity and have from the start.

Ergo, Francis' words make no sense. The only way they do make sense is if he a) does not believe that the Catholic Church possesses the whole truth and/or b) does not believe that truth ultimately matters. If the former, he's a heretic, if the latter, he's a syncretist.

Where I think he is correct on this small point is recognizing that genuine Christians do exist outside of Catholicism - and your own Catechism affirms this. What's the point of hammering on someone like me, for example, to "come back" to Catholicism when I already believe and accept the Christian truths and have a relationship with and follow Jesus Christ? I did not have that kind of experience within Catholicism but I now know that I have eternal life with Jesus Christ. I question Catholics who seem to disagree with EVERYTHING their current Pope says almost as a knee-jerk reaction. On this point he is at least talking about something that IS part of your faith - at least as far as Vatican II and the current Catechism, that is.

[ebb tide]

I don't know how familiar you are with Protestant denominations but the majority of them started out having very little that separated one from the other.

No, the one big difference is that they all apostatized from the One, True Church. Heretics tend to flock together, like crows.

[boatbums]

The part above after 'explaining it to mean' seems to be a departure from earlier Catholic explanation of this issue. I agree with you, I don't care specifically what the Catholics say, but the current vicar attempts to destroy Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. As to the latter, real Catholics have a problem, as to the former all Christians do (even if to real Catholics we aren't Christians). The Savior knows His own, God is faithful.

In the Catholic Catechism, it is stated that the absolute of Lumen Gentium is "reformatted positively" to mean that anyone who knows Catholicism is the true church but refuses to enter or remain cannot be saved. It clarifies that those who DO NOT recognize that CAN be saved and are Christians through faith in Jesus Christ. I agree that it is contradictory and I know many Catholics see it that way as well. I praise the Lord that He spoke to me through His word and I heard His call. I rejoice in my salvation.

[boatbums]

Amen!

[boatbums]

No, the one big difference is that they all apostatized from the One, True Church. Heretics tend to flock together, like crows.

Like you are doing by refusing to submit to the legitimately elected Pope of Rome? Hmmm...

The REAL true church of Jesus Christ, His body and Bride, is a SPIRITUAL one consisting of ALL genuine Christians who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior. Even your so-called "first" Pope said so:

 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,  a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” (I Peter 2:4-6)

[Elsie]

He keeps the LAW; until he doesn’t:

just like the rest of us.

[Elsie]

I know what I'm doing and Whom I'm praying to.

Apparently a LOT of Catholics say this...

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS. Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED. 

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

(Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

She says, "He that shall find Me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord.   "Qui me invenerit, inveniet vitam, et hauriet salutem a Domino."

Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God: honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation."  "Audite qui ingredi cupitis regnum Dei: Virginem Mariam honorate, et invenietis vitam et salutem perpetuam."-psalt. B.V.ps.48.

 

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven. Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

 

“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]

“... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae, September 12, 1897.) [p. 68; no. 302]

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"Only She Can Help You"
by Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D. (Cand.)
In this letter introducing The Fatima Crusader Issue 38, Father Gruner discusses the growing lies and deception about Russia's errors and the consecration of that nation. He also reminds us that, while it is urgent that we be informed about and fight for Our Lady's cause, we must ask for Her help and intercession.

In the Fatima sanctuary, at the exact spot where Our Lady appeared, Father Gruner pays homage to Her while touching the original statue of Fatima. Father Gruner was recently graced with this rare opportunity since normally this sacred image is always protected by a glass covering which completely surrounds it all day long.

Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
In this article taken from The Glories of Mary, Saint Alphonsus explains that there are countless souls in Heaven who are there now only because Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them there. If a soul persists in true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, She will certainly lead that soul to Heaven.

 

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The Rosary
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is greatly important that Our Lady insisted on the Rosary. When at Fatima She spoke of the salvation of sinners, of the ruin of souls in hell, of wars and peace, and of the future of our age. Our Lady indicated and recommended the Rosary as the prayer that saves, that brings peace, that preserves the faith.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is truly a treasure to have a strong devotion to Our Lady, for it is She who unites us to Jesus and brings us to Heaven, as this article explains.

Mary, Our Life, Our Sweetness, Our Hope
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains how Mary is our life, how She is our sweetness, and how She is our hope.

The historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus de Liguori who wrote “The Glories of Mary” in the year 1745, which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church.  In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due.  She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our Mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation.  It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven.  And it should be said that de Liguori, who collected all the Marion dogma and devotion, was himself one of the most celebrated and revered authorities in the Roman Catholic Church.  De Liguori was himself a cardinal in life, and a saint in death.

 

Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". In this crisis which looms ahead of us, Our Lady has told us that we need Her help, Her intercession. We must ask for Her help with the Rosary and the Scapular.

At Fatima, Our Lady told us very plainly that "Only I can help you". Today more than ever is this so true.

Pray the Rosary and sacrifice yourself for Our Lady.

I urge you to also make some sacrifices as Our Lady of Fatima asked us. For those who are able, do some fasting. If you can, abstain from meat by eating meat only during one meal a day. Try to do this for two days, even ten days or 30 days. Of course we should abstain totally from meat every Friday.

 

 Jesus and Mary — Our Hope

It is so urgent that we reach as many souls as possible before it is too late. Let us be of good cheer and remember the words of Jesus to each of us, "It's never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary." That is why it is so important to reach the many millions of souls who do not know this, and who do not know the grave dangers lying in wait for their souls.

No, we must never lose hope. Mary is our hope. She can obtain for us what we cannot by ourselves. Read what St. Alphonsus has to say regarding confidence in Our Lady's intercession in "Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven". Father Manelli also reminds us of the importance of devotion to Our Lady. (See "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"). Our Blessed Mother tells us to turn to Her in confidence. She tells us repeatedly to ask Her intercession through the frequent fervent praying of the Rosary. (See "The Rosary"). She tells us we must pray the Rosary every day. She wants us to pray it many times a day.

 

http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg2.asp

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"Blessed is he whose interior offers the Blessed Virgin Mary a place of repose." Devotion towards the Blessed Virgin remains in all who are the inheritance of Our Lord; that is to say, in all who will praise Him eternally in Heaven.

O, how many blessed souls are now in Heaven who would never have been there had not Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them thither. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text of Ecclesiasticus, says in the name of Mary, "I have caused as many saints in Heaven through Her intercession, who would never have been there but through Her ."

...in the words of St. Ambrose, "Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since Thou hast its keys." "Aperi nobis, O Virgo coelum, cujus claves habes." Nay more, the Church says, that "Thou art its gate." 

St. Antoninus tells us "that this divine Mother has already, by Her assistance and prayers, obtained Heaven for us, provided we put no obstacle in the way."23 Hence, says Abbot Guerric, "he who serves Mary, and for whom She intercedes, is as certain of Heaven as if he was already there."24 St. John Damascene also says, "that to serve Mary and be Her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess; for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and live under Her commands is more than to govern."25 On the other hand, he adds, "that those who do not serve Mary will not be saved; for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are also deprived of that of Her Son and of the whole court of heaven."26

 23.  "Coeleste nobis regnum, suo interventu auxiliis, et precibus, impetravit."—Paciucch. Sup. Salve Reg. exc. I.
 24. "Qui Virgini famulatur, ita securus est de paradiso, ac si esset in paradiso."
 25. "Summus honor, servire Mariæ, et de ejus esse familia; etenim ei servire, regnare est; et ejus agi frænis, summa libertas."
 26. "Gens quæ non servierit illi, peribit; gentes destitutæ tantæ Matris auxilio, destituuntur auxilio Filii et totius curi’‘ coelestis."— De Laud. B. M. I. 4.

Cardinal Hugo http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg3.asp 

[Elsie]

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” (I Peter 2:4-6)

Yep; that is how it is written; but the way Rome teaches is a wee bit different...

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,  a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever ...

believes that the Roman Catholic Church is the ONE True church,
believes the wine and wafer served up by the priest is TRULY Christ's real flesh and blood (and eats it),
believes he MUST confess his sins to the Only person able to forgive his sins Ithe priest),
believes Mary is in Heaven,

believes Mary will get Jesus to do whatever SHE tells Him, 

believes Mary is a NECESSARY part of salvation,

believes Mary is everyone's mother,

believes Mary has, at many times and various places, brought yet another  message from Heaven that evidently was forgotten to be included in the bible when Rome assembled it,

believes Mary makes promises to her adorers and venerators and hyperdulia expressors that she will bestow upon them HER favors if they do HER will,
believes many famous dead Catholics have similar powers that Rome has attributed to Mary,

believes holy water will repel vampires,          (well; maybe not THIS one...)

... will not be put to shame.” (I Peter 2:4-6)

[daniel1212]

The part above after 'explaining it to mean' seems to be a departure from earlier Catholic explanation of this issue...the current vicar attempts to destroy Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular

The problem is on what RC basis can a faithful Catholic presume his interpretation of Catholic teaching is correct over that of their magisterium and pope at any time?

. As to the latter, real Catholics have a problem,

They do indeed, for a fundamental premise of Catholicism is that personal interpretation cannot be trusted, and thus a faithful RC is not to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences (for that reason). For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the assuredly infallible magisterium by which a RC obtains assurance of Truth.

And therefore, faced with arguments from evangelicals showing contradictions of certain RC teaching from Scripture, they argue that their understanding must be subject to the one true Church - the pope and his prelates.

However, when faced with teachings and popes they disagree with then they justify their dissent on the basis of their judgment of what is valid modern church teaching in the light of certain past historical church teachings. In so doing these traditional RCs in essence are as Protestants whom they censure for ascertaining the veracity of teaching by examination of warrant for it in the light of Scripture.

And the presupposition that they can dissent from the pope is contrary to papal teaching from the era to which they look as being true Catholicism. Which requires assent to more than just so-called "infallible" teaching" but to other "letters and other public documents" and to "all matters which the episcopal power embraces," "all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord," and "each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge." These quotes and more below are all from Catholic sites.

Epistola Tua: To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment , and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.... Similarly, it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.

On this point what must be remembered is that in the government of the Church, except for the essential duties imposed on all Pontiffs by their apostolic office, each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge. It is true that for this he has not only special lights, but still more the knowledge of the needs and conditions of the whole of Christendom, for which, it is fitting, his apostolic care must provide. - Epistola Tua (1885), Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=403215&language=en

"It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent... if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians. - PIUS XII, HUMANI GENERI, August 1950; http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

The authority (of papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great". It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church." - Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, esteemed Catholic theologian and professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America, who served as a peritus for Cardinal Ottaviani at the Second Vatican Council. Extract from the American Ecclesiastical Review, Vol. CXXI, August, 1949; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty.

Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord. - CASTI CONNUBII, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI; https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html

...when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority ; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.

The Bishops form the most sacred part of the Church, that which instructs and governs men by divine right; and so he who resists them and stubbornly refuses to obey their word places himself outside the Church [cf. Matt. 18:18]. But obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces. - (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912, as found at http://www.christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x

to scrutinize the actions of a bishop, to criticize them, does not belong to individual Catholics, but concerns only those who, in the sacred hierarchy, have a superior power; above all, it concerns the Supreme Pontiff, for it is to him that Christ confided the care of feeding not only all the lambs, but even the sheep [cf. John 21:17]. - Est Sane Molestum (1888) Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.novusordowatch.org/est-sane-molestum-leo-xiii.htm

In addition, as concerns social teaching, The "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" (2005) states:

80. In the Church’s social doctrine the Magisterium is at work in all its various components and expressions. … Insofar as it is part of the Church’s moral teaching, the Church’s social doctrine has the same dignity and authority as her moral teaching. It is authentic Magisterium, which obligates the faithful to adhere to it . - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

And it is quite well evidenced that the popes last encyclical (http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html) is intended to teach what the Church's moral teaching demands as regards ecology and economy. (172 references in this encyclical cite church teaching and prelates for support).

Thus we either have Trad. RCs contradicting past papal teaching in asserting the modern papal and magisterial teaching contradicts the past, or Rome's interpretation of herself is to be trusted.

If the former is the case then evangelicals cannot be condemned for seeking to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching in the lighg of the most ancient and trustworthy historical church teaching, that of the NT, and in which Catholicism is substantially absent and contrary to , and which eliminates the second option.

[marshmallow]

Of course, but I'm not talking about those who are truly lost and without Christ. Certainly there is such a thing as the "entire truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and the question, then, is who knows it and HOW do they know it?

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm assuming that everybody possesses the full truth of the Gospel.....at least in their own mind.

The question is, therefore, isn't it natural to want to spread that truth to those who don't have it in its completeness, whether they be atheists, agnostics or other believers who possess only a part of the truth?

Where I think he is correct on this small point is recognizing that genuine Christians do exist outside of Catholicism - and your own Catechism affirms this.

I've see nothing in the transcripts of the Pope's remarks which indicates any disinction between "those who are truly lost" (as you put it) and those who are "genuine Christians" (as you put it). My understanding is that his condenmation of proselytism is a blanket condemnation. He's saying "we don't proselytize....period".

What's the point of hammering on someone like me, for example, to "come back" to Catholicism when I already believe and accept the Christian truths and have a relationship with and follow Jesus Christ?

The word "hammering" is Francis-talk. That's how he views proselytism. It's a pejorative term. Spreading the faith doesn't have to be that way. The author of the article and similar converts don't feel they've been "hammered". They're grateful for being brought to the fullness of the truth.

[Elsie]

The word "hammering" is Francis-talk.

I wonder what Bible-talk might be...

Luke 14:23
So the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the highways and the hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.

[boatbums]

I've see nothing in the transcripts of the Pope's remarks which indicates any disinction between "those who are truly lost" (as you put it) and those who are "genuine Christians" (as you put it). My understanding is that his condenmation of proselytism is a blanket condemnation. He's saying "we don't proselytize....period".

Maybe it was the FIRST part of the beginning sentence of this thread: "Proselytism among Christians..."?

The word "hammering" is Francis-talk. That's how he views proselytism. It's a pejorative term. Spreading the faith doesn't have to be that way. The author of the article and similar converts don't feel they've been "hammered". They're grateful for being brought to the fullness of the truth.

I don't believe that Roman Catholicism has the "completeness" or the "fullness" of the Christian faith. If I did, I would have stayed.

[marshmallow]

Maybe it was the FIRST part of the beginning sentence of this thread: "Proselytism among Christians..."?

On that occasion he was talking about proselytism among Christians. But in his conversations with the Italian atheist Eugenio Scalfari, for instance, he was equally insistent that proselytism is "solemn nonsense" and that he would not attempt to convert him. In fact, I believe this was where Francis first raised the subject of proselytism, although he has returned to it on several occasions since then.

I don't believe that Roman Catholicism has the "completeness" or the "fullness" of the Christian faith. If I did, I would have stayed.

Of course.....that's my point. I would expect members of any religion to hold similar convictions.

[boatbums]

On that occasion he was talking about proselytism among Christians.

Hence...why I was talking about what he supposedly said on THIS particular thread. Why do I get the feeling that NOBODY is allowed to express their opinion without getting grief about it? I simply said I agreed with Pope Francis on this particular point, that's all.

Of course.....that's my point. I would expect members of any religion to hold similar convictions.

Ah...but I used to BE a Catholic and left it for what I truly believe is the orthodox Christian faith. My convictions are NOW different than before that. The only part another person played in my conversion was showing me a Scripture passage and letting me read it. She didn't pressure me at all. That's the point I was trying to make here. If someone is seeking the truth, God will reveal it. He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Someone may plant a seed, another waters it, but it is GOD who causes it to grow. We shouldn't be trying to pilfer church members. I don't participate on these RF threads to get people to leave their church for mine. I usually don't even say what my church is. But what I do defend is what I believe is the truth of the faith - a lot of times against a Catholic who insists I can't be saved if I'm not one, too.

[marshmallow]

But what I do defend is what I believe is the truth of the faith - a lot of times against a Catholic who insists I can't be saved if I'm not one, too.

Yes, I think this is the heart of the matter. "Defending" the truth of the faith and proactively promoting it is what a Christian should do. But we can take that one step further; when one defends the truth, one hopes that those who hear it, will be drawn to it, right? This is what some would call "proselytism". Others might call it "pilfering". I disagree. To "pilfer" is to take something which does not belong to you.

Proclaiming the truth and hoping that those who hear it will be moved by it should not be confused with illicit activity.