Posted on 08/11/2016 9:06:49 PM PDT by UnChained
Beyond creeds.
All attempts to articulate the Triune Godhead that I have seen focus on inconsequentials. The nature of the Trinity is rather simple but I can't come up with a way to express it compactly so please bear with me.
You will acknowledge that God in His Omnipotence has the power to create a perfect copy of me, a color Xerox of me if you will. Such a copy might be so perfect that the copy would be convinced that he actually WAS me. My family couldn't tell the difference either because he would share every single attribute I possessed.; but he wouldn't truly BE me and I would rightly object to being killed to make room for him . Conversely, if my own attributes ever changed for some reason like due to having a stroke, and I even forgot the faces of my own children, wouldn't I still be me? I am a being and each being that exists has its own unique identity that is actually independent of whatever attributes are present or absent.
"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.". Genesis 1:1
This verse describes the creation of the the Earth, the cosmos, and the creation of the place we commonly call Heaven. When God created everything, He also created time and space. God therefore exists beyond time and space. Glimpses we get into the third Heaven in Revelation, reveal that there is some sort of dimensionality there but one cannot reach Heaven by physically traveling to it from Earth. In a sense, the realm that we call Heaven is sort of like a parallel universe. One wrinkle in that comparison is that the time in Heaven is apparently locked to the time here on Earth. Verses that describe reactions in Heaven to events on Earth indicate that the time is synchronized between Heaven and Earth.
I said all that to highlight that our existence here on Earth is spacial and temporal. The scriptures strongly imply that existence in Heaven is spacial and temporal too. Even though the Lord's Prayer includes the line "Our Father, Who art in Heaven...", the created realm that is Heaven, doesn't fully contain God. The Psalmist says that God has to bow down to even LOOK at Heaven. When Solomon was dedicating the Temple, he said to God "even the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain You.". This is all because God is beyond time and space.
However, in the incarnation, Jesus WAS contained by time and space here on the Earth; He wasn't omnipresent even though He saw Andrew from afar. And even though all power and authority was given to Jesus; He wasn't omnipotent. When Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His coming, Jesus implied that He wasn't omniscient either. Detailed knowledge of the future apparently was the domain only of the Father who is beyond time.
We serve a living God, but what do we mean when we we say that God is alive? Isn't it that like us, God is a Being? Doesn’t even His Name "I AM" assert God's livingness as a being? We humans are alive as sentient beings. We are each a “Self Awareness” which is something alive that is superimposed upon our biological lives. This most important component of our "livingness" is this intangible thing that is looking out of our eyes. Indeed, that is how we humans were made by God "after His own Likeness." God is a living being and so are we. Another word used to denote our being is "soul". It is our soul that we hope will live again in the resurrection. But if God reassembles you again after you are fed through a wood chipper, will the resurrected you be the REAL you or merely a color Xerox of you?
Christians believe that God has the power to truly raise them from the dead. We therefore believe God has the power to manipulate individual souls, moving them through time and space, housing them and rehousing them as needed; Indeed, He demonstrated that power by placing His own Being, His "I AM", into a human body in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago and then subsequently dieing and rising again.
It is meaningless to talk about the dual natures of Christ when the important fact is that Jesus was/is the same being as the Father. Also whatever attributes were present or absent in the incarnation is of secondary relevance to the fact that Jesus was and is, the same I AM as the Father. God didn't create a new being for Jesus’ body like He did when He breathed life into Adam. In the incarnation of Jesus, God installed His own Being, His very Life into the Human body that was Jesus’. Just as when I begot my son by contributing my LIVING sperm that became a vital part of the LIVING cell that grew into my living son; so God begot Jesus by putting His own life, His very BEING into His Son’s body. Jesus and the Father aren't two persons. They are the SAME person if the word person means anything at all. Talk of the "same substance" or of "essences" doesn't convey the awesome reality of Jesus' oneness with the Father.
The questions that may still confound the reader are "If Jesus is the same Being / I AM / Person as the Father,
How can Jesus and the Father exist at the SAME time?" ( like at the baptism of Jesus )
How can Jesus be subordinate to the Father?"
How could Jesus pray to the Father and talk about Him in the third person?"
The answer to question number one is the key to it all.
IT ISN'T THE SAME TIME!!!"
The Father is the Great " I AM " who dwells OUTSIDE of time and space. In the incarnation, Jesus was the I AM of God dwelling WITHIN time and Space. There is no paradox or simultaneity conflict between the two realms. All of God’s attributes couldn’t fit in Jesus’ human body though, The Father / Son relationship is a result of the inevitable Greater to Lesser / Begetter to Begotten nature of the relationship. In brief, Jesus is the "I AM" of God within time and space, the Father is the "I AM" Who dwells beyond time and space. If the reader can get a handle on this, all of the scriptures that touch on this topic will fall into place.
Even Jesus' existence in Heaven was/is temporal. Whether you contend that Jesus had a beginning with the start of time in Heaven, or you say that Jesus existed from eternity past before the Creation, doesn't really change what makes Jesus one with the Father. Focusing on whether attributes are shared or not doesn't affect the awesome fact that our God so contrived reality that He could give up His life for us. Jesus wasn't some hapless third party that God punished on our behalf; Jesus was God Himself in the flesh!!
That fact is much more wondrous than anything you gain by adhering to the words of some mouldy creed.
I feel this is the answer to 2/3 of the Trinity mystery. Most discussions of the Trinity only speak of the Father and the Son. I cannot even begin to ponder the nature of the Holy Spirit's relationship within the Godhead however.
A really pathetic diagram.
Scriptural descriptions:
God the Father
Son of God
Spirit of God
The Son’s own testimony is that he came from the Father. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father. Your diagram does not display that.
**The greatest book ever written on the Trinity:**
The greatest book ever written on the Godhead is the Bible.
The Son of God (scriptural definition), and the Spirit of God (scriptural definition), are sourced to God the Father (scriptural definition).
Are you Arthur McGowan of Free Republic, or Free Republic the Arthur McGowan?
Am I right that Free Republic is not your creation, but that Free Republic gives you a voice, even ‘life’ on this forum?
Jesus Christ declared that he was given life by the Father.
The Father is the Son’s omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient source of power.
**There is no end to “explanations” of the trinity because it can’t keep going without the 24/7/365 cover stories.**
You are certainly right about that!
**The trouble is, he simply is who he is, just like his father David, who was a man after God’s own heart.**
The trouble (with your opinion) is, that it doesn’t fully portray Jesus Christ as Isaiah (and other prophets) portray him. David wasn’t born of a virgin. David was never given all power and authority in heaven and earth (Is. 9:6, for example).
Try the three states of water. Gas, solid, and liquid.
5.56mm
Descriptions that are used to define man’s carnal understanding of the Godhead are just as unscriptural.
Stick with the scriptures and you have descriptions such as these:
God the Father
Son of God (the phrase ‘God the Son’ is not found in scripture)
Spirit of God (the phrase ‘God the Holy Spirit’ is not found in scripture)
Still want a earthly description? Here’s one:
A tv is a physical object that emits miraculous things to see and hear, from out of thin air. But, without the single electrical source, it can do nothing.
Scriptural descriptions are obviously the best, such as Jesus Christ referring to the Father as the husbandman, and himself as the vine. The husbandman plants the vine, giving it life. The vine puts forth branches. Yet the branches are given helps from the husbandman, such as poles, string, rope, etc. to grow in the right direction. Branches that end up laying on the ground are redirected by the husbandman, or cut off.
The trouble (with your opinion) is, that it doesn’t fully portray Jesus Christ as Isaiah (and other prophets) portray him. David wasn’t born of a virgin. David was never given all power and authority in heaven and earth (Is. 9:6, for example).
The Messiah is a man after God's own heart, just like his father David. It was a comment on his character, not of what manner he was conceived, or what specific authority he has. He is who he is, so people won't recognize him. A lot of folks are looking for somebody else entirely.
Ack, if the Messiah believed in the "settled doctrines" that ostensibly define him, he wouldn't even recognize himself. Everything is truly flipped upside-down out there. Pass the popcorn. :)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5) KJV
In the beginning...was the Word...the Word was with God...the Word was God...and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us...
It seems the first chapter of John's Gospel pretty much says it all.
A restatement.
That the Trinity is an unfathomable mystery is a point of faith in many people’s beliefs but I do not think that the Bible teaches that the Trinity is inherently beyond understanding. The Bible gives many clues that led to the formal statements of the doctrine but to date there have been few attempts express the Trinity in a way that was comprehensible yet were aligned with orthodox Christian doctrine.
This is not an analogy to help someone understand the Trinity better but is an assertion of what is the primary nature of the relationship of the Father and Son. I was hoping that someone would either refute it Biblically or help refine the presentation of it as a fuller answer to understanding the mystery of the Trinity.
The various Christian creeds that touch on the Trinity give carefully crafted descriptions of the relationships within the Godhead, but the hard to comprehend aspects are generally relegated to mystery. The question how three persons can be in fact, be one is not addressed in the creeds but rather the creeds merely contain eloquent assertions that the Three are indeed One and mostly leave it at that; no real explanation is offered. Many Christians resort to one analogy or another as a means to comprehend and express the relationships within the Godhead. Yet no analogy can be truly analogous; the Godhead is unique.
I feel that all attempts to articulate the Triune Godhead that I have seen focus on inconsequentials like the shared qualities of the Members of the Godhead. The nature of the Trinity is subtle but also rather simple. I apologize that I couldn’t come up with a way to express it more compactly, please bear with me.
Identity is not the same as identical:
You will acknowledge that God in His Omnipotence has the power to create a perfect copy of me, a color Xerox of me if you will. Such a copy might be so perfect that the copy would be convinced that he actually WAS me. My family couldn’t tell the difference either because he would share every single attribute I possessed.; but he wouldn’t truly BE me and I would rightly object to being killed to make room for him . Conversely, if my own attributes ever changed for some reason like due to having a stroke, and I even forgot the faces of my own children, wouldn’t I still be me? I am a being and each being that exists has its own unique identity. That identity is independent of whatever attributes are present or absent.
God is outside of time:
“In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.”. Genesis 1:1
This verse describes the creation of the Earth, the cosmos, and the creation of the place we commonly call Heaven. When God created everything, He also created time and space. God therefore exists beyond time and space. Glimpses we get into the third Heaven in Revelation, reveal that there is some sort of dimensionality there but one cannot reach Heaven by physically traveling to it from Earth. In a sense, the realm that we call Heaven is sort of like a parallel universe. One wrinkle in that comparison is that the time in Heaven is apparently locked to the time here on Earth. Verses that describe reactions in Heaven to events on Earth indicate that the time is synchronized between Heaven and Earth.
I said all that to highlight that our existence here on Earth is spacial and temporal. The scriptures strongly imply that existence in Heaven is spacial and temporal too. Even though the Lord’s Prayer includes the line “Our Father, Who art in Heaven...”, the created realm that is Heaven, doesn’t fully contain God. The Psalmist says that God has to bow down to even LOOK at Heaven. When Solomon was dedicating the Temple, he said to God “even the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain You.”. This is all because God is beyond time and space.
However, in the incarnation, Jesus WAS contained by time and space here on the Earth; He wasn’t omnipresent even though He saw Andrew from afar. And even though all power and authority was given to Jesus; He wasn’t omnipotent. When Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His coming, Jesus implied that He wasn’t omniscient either. Detailed knowledge of the future apparently was the domain only of the Father who is beyond time.
What does God’s only Begotten Son mean?
We serve a living God, but what do we mean when we we say that God is alive? Isn’t it that like us, God is a Being? Doesn’t even His Name “I AM” assert God’s livingness as a being? We humans are alive as sentient beings. We are each a “Self Awareness” which is something alive that is superimposed upon our biological lives. This most important component of our “livingness” is this intangible thing that is looking out of our eyes. Indeed, that is how we humans were made by God “after His own Likeness.” God is a living being and so are we. Another word used to denote our being is “soul”. It is our soul that we hope will live again in the resurrection. But if God reassembles you again after you are fed through a wood chipper, will the resurrected you be the REAL you or merely a color Xerox of you?
Christians believe that God has the power to truly raise them from the dead. We therefore believe God has the power to manipulate individual souls, moving them through time and space, housing them and rehousing them as needed; Indeed, He demonstrated that power by placing His own Being, His “I AM”, into a human body in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago and then subsequently dieing and rising again.
It is meaningless to talk about the dual natures of Christ when the important fact is that Jesus was/is the same I AM as the Father. Also whatever attributes were present or absent in the incarnation is of secondary relevance to the fact that Jesus was and is, the same I AM as the Father. When God breathed life into Adam, He created a new being to inhabit Adam’s body. In the incarnation of Jesus, God installed His own Being, His very Life into the Human body that was Jesus’. Just as when I begot my son by contributing my LIVING sperm that became a vital part of the LIVING cell that grew into my living son; so God begot Jesus by putting His own life, His very BEING into His Son’s body. Jesus and the Father aren’t two persons. They are two different instances of the SAME person if the word person means anything at all. Talk of the “same substance” or of “essences” doesn’t convey the awesome reality of Jesus’ oneness with the Father. The talk of three persons in the creeds are error I feel.
The answer to the Mystery:
The questions that may still confound the reader are “If Jesus is the same Being / I AM / Person as the Father,
How can Jesus and the Father exist at the SAME time?” ( like at the baptism of Jesus )
How can Jesus be subordinate to the Father?”
How could Jesus pray to the Father and talk about Him in the third person?”
The answer to question number one is the key to it all.
IT ISN’T THE SAME TIME!!!”
The Father is the Great “ I AM “ who dwells OUTSIDE of time and space. In the incarnation, Jesus was the I AM of God dwelling WITHIN time and Space. There is no paradox or simultaneity conflict between the two realms. All of God’s attributes couldn’t fit in this Universe or in Jesus’ human body though, The Father to Son relationship is a result of the inevitable Greater to Lesser / Begetter to Begotten nature of the relationship.
In brief, Jesus is the “I AM” of God within time and space, the Father is the “I AM” Who dwells beyond time and space. If the reader can get a handle on this, all of the scriptures that touch on this topic will fall into place.
Even Jesus’ existence in Heaven was and is temporal. Whether you contend that Jesus had a beginning with the start of time in Heaven, or if you say that Jesus existed from eternity past before the Creation, doesn’t really change what makes Jesus one with the Father. Focusing on whether attributes are shared or not doesn’t affect the awesome fact that our God so contrived reality that He could give up His life for us. Jesus wasn’t some hapless third party that God punished on our behalf; Jesus was God Himself in the flesh!!
That fact is much more wondrous than anything you gain by adhering to the words of some mouldy creed.
An interesting wrinkle to this understanding provides a rationale for why there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth. While the desirability of a New Earth may be obvious; the need for a New Heaven is not. What is wrong with the, no doubt, awesome Heaven that exists now?
The rationale is buried within a point mentioned earlier. God cannot be contained by Heaven. Though Heaven may be God’s Throne and the Earth His footstool, Heaven is still a created, temporal place, too small for God. Yet in Revelation 21, right after the New Heaven and Earth are established, a momentous angelic announcement is heard.
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.”
Hear what’s being said here:
“...God Himself will be with them...”
God will be able to move into the New Heaven and make Himself at home there. Apparently, God’s plan for eternity is to remake reality so He can spend it just as close to us as He can get us. Cool Huh?
I feel all this is the answer to 2/3 of the Trinity mystery. Most discussions of the Trinity only speak of the Father and the Son so I’ve left it there. The relationship of the Holy Spirit to the rest of the Godhead seems much more elusive for now.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.So, God made light and God is light. Surely our understanding of light will help us to understand something invisible of him. Take a look at the electromagnetic spectrum. There is a band in the middle which divides light into three sections, a trinity. The middle band is the visible part of the spectrum or the rainbow. This is the part of light that we can see even as Christ is the part of God that we can see, the second person.
Gen 9:16 And the bow (Christ) shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I feel that the explanation I’ve offered is completely in line with every scripture that touches on the Godhead. Also what I’ve written is NOT an illustration or analogy; it is put forward as THE single explanation of how Jesus can be the Son of God and also God Himself.
If we superimpose everything we know about the phenomenon of light onto the Godhead because the scripture “God is Light” gives us license to do so; then there are properties of light that don’t really fit. ie composed of quanta, travels at 186,000 mi/sec etc. Your observation might make a good basis for a sermon but it’s quite different than what I am trying to accomplish.
I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts/ criticisms
Regards
2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.That the speed of light is constant is an interesting parallel. The relative speed between two objects does not figure into the equation “Distance = Velocity X Time,” since V=C when light is one of the objects. This has led to the theory that distance and time are subject to properties of light, which is part of the foundation of your theory. The absolute properties of light are like the character of God. He designed light to show us.
Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
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