Replies

Thanks for your note, but you did not prove your case from Scripture.

Some comments:

"The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood."

We agree here.

"The book of Revelation shows the saints worshiping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11)"

We agree that this occurred, but there is no evidence in this passage that anyone on earth *prayed to these saints* or that *the saints heard their prayers* or that *any prayer was answered by a saint.*

"Because they are alive, we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God. We do not need to see apparitions or hear their voices in order to believe they will pray for us in heaven. We trust that the saints will accept our requests for help and will present them to Christ for us."

Which is simply an opinion apart from Scripture. By this standard, you can believe whatever you wish. A desire or opinion like this does not make the opinion true.

"God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him"

Abraham was alive.

"God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you”

Job was alive.

"Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God."

Praying for one another *to God* is different than *praying to each other.* The latter is not commanded.

" It is because the Christian belongs to Jesus Christ and is a member of his Body, the Church, that we can make effective prayer."

Yet there is not Scripture supporting praying to departed saints. Nor is there any Scripture teaching that departed saints can hear such prayers.

"The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. "

The reason is simpler than that. Since it is not found in the Bible, nor before 100 AD, it is not part of the Apostle's teaching, but is simply a pagan practice added to the church. Syncretic paganism.

"From this it follows that a saint in heaven may intercede for other people"

No reason to think a departed saint can't pray. That is a different discussion. What we do not find anywhere in Scripture is a command or teaching to pray to a departed saint - nor any Scriptural evidence that a departed saint can hear such prayers. It is made up out of whole cloth.

"The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven"

Not once. Not ever in Scripture.

ping: daniel1212 - I know this is an interest of yours.

We agree here.

I am sure you and Scripture do not agree that spiritual life ever was obtained by literally physically eating anything, which is contrary to John in particular.

We agree that this occurred,

No, we and Scripture do not. Typical of RC extrapolation out of what is not there, Rev. 4:10 simply describes non-intercessory praise/worship of God, while besides asking God when He will avenge their blood, (6:9-11) as prophesied, nowhere does it say they were offering prayers for the saints on earth, but Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4 says that they (the 4 beasts and elders, and then angels, receptively) were offering the prayers OF the saints, which will be done in memorial (cf. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) before the judgments of the last days against their enemies.

"Because they are alive, we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God.

Meaning they can believe what is utterly and conspicuously absent in Scripture, except among idolators, and despite multitudes of angels to pray to, and ascended believers after the resurrection, despite prayer being a most basic common practice, with the Holy Spirit inspiring approx. 200 prayers to God, zero to any created beings, and despite stating that Christ is the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man, (1Tim, 2:5) and despite instruction on prayer addressing God (nor "our Mother who art in Heaven"), and despite no created being in Heaven shown having the ability to hear the multitudes of prayer from earth, which is a uniquely Divine ability.

We do not need to see apparitions or hear their voices in order to believe they will pray for us in heaven.

Which is simply an opinion apart from Scripture.

Indeed, but not simply absent from Scripture, but contrary to every example of prayer to Heaven, and instruction on prayer. When only idolators do what what you do, despite it being about as common as eating, then you know your are presumptuous.

In addition, believers praying for us in heaven is not the issue, as while that may be possible, the issue is that of praying to them, which is uniquely Divine privilege and power.

Abraham was alive...Job was alive.

Indeed, but Caths can extrapolate support out of whole cloth.

"The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven"

Not once. Not ever in Scripture.

Indeed, but Caths see what they want, and damnably abuse Scripture by compelling it to support their ecclesiastical object of security and devotion.

ping: daniel1212 - I know this is an interest of yours.

Indeed. Just refuted another vain attempt for prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) , by God's grace.

Your comment: “Thanks for your note, but you did not prove your case from Scripture.”

It is very clear to me, so I have stated it 3 times: “4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.”

“The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven”

Not once. Not ever in Scripture. (Your comment)

Well here it is: (twice)

In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Your comment: “Praying for one another *to God* is different than *praying to each other.* The latter is not commanded.”

Again, your interpretation. We pray to the Saints and the Blessed Mother Mary for their help as members of the Body of Christ as they are with Christ in Heaven as they offer our prayers to God.

Since you agree that we can pray for each other, what is better than to ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for us.

8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

11 I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless* in number,e

REV 8:3-5
Another angel came and stood at the altar,* holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.c 4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

You can advise daniel to respond to the specific scripture so that he does not go off with his personal opinion and the false statement of the non believer about the quoted words of Jesus Christ in the Bible that one needs to eat His Body and Blood for eternal life.