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To: cloudmountain; Salvation

“Obviously they probably don’t believe in Apostolic Tradition.”

Which apostolic tradition are you referring to the 4, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 19, or 20th?

No, I can’t believe in a tradition that happened in the 1st century and then has had major changes every since. That’s not tradition that’s making it up as you go.

1 . Prayers for the dead . …………-—————————……300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross ………………………… …300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints …………-————…….375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship………………………………… . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration……………………………… 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus……………. .-———————————————————— 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)……………………………… ..526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1…………………………… .593 A.D..
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……………………………… .600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics ……………………… … 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints ………………………………… ..995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …………………………………… …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary ……………………………………………… … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……………………………………………… …..1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III …………………………… 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest …………………… 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…………………………… .. 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion …………………..1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed …………….1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent…………………………………………————————… 1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ………——————……….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary……………………………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council ……………… 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……………………………-—————————————————……1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……………………… 1965 A.D.


37 posted on 07/23/2016 10:01:56 PM PDT by mrobisr ( so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow)
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To: mrobisr

Tradition, singular. You have a list there of dates when certain dogma, doctrine or praxis was defined or declared. That is the end-result of Tradition, not the starting point. You are confusing the secular use of the word (the “tradition” of decorating Christmas trees, for example) with the uniquely Christian understanding of revealed truth.


38 posted on 07/23/2016 10:24:11 PM PDT by opus1 (This is all getting rather confusing.)
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To: mrobisr
This is the bogus list from Boettner's Roman Catholicism, which is a farrago of errors.

Adoration of the wafer (Host)…………………………… .. 1220 A.D.

For example, at one point in his writings, Augustine of Hippo says that we sin if we don't adore the sacred Host. Augustine of Hippo died in the mid-5th century. That's a long time before "1220 AD," isn't it?

44 posted on 07/24/2016 4:43:51 AM PDT by Campion (Halten Sie sich unbedingt an die Lehre!)
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To: mrobisr
No, I can’t believe in a tradition that happened in the 1st century and then has had major changes every since. That’s not tradition that’s making it up as you go.

The New Testament, as we know it, didn't come into being until almost 300 years after Christ's death.

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church.
Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized.

**Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7).

**Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16).

Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27).

Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115).

Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108).
Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235).

*The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

========================================

https://discovercatholic.wordpress.com/11-2/where-did-we-get-the-bible/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

There are many, many more sites regarding the writing of the New Testament. It sure wasn't done by defrocked Father Martin Luther in the 16th century. The New Testament had been around for 1500 years+ before Protestantism arrived.

==============================

My Protestant friend in Texas (Baptist turned Presbyterian) and I compared Bibles. There ARE some differences, not many, but they do exist. Neither of us thought that the differences were insurmountable to the New Testament or to Jesus' command to us: Love God and love each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

The above is a site which has the plethora of different Christian denominations, outside of Catholicism. I thought it was a most interesting read. I've done it before...and it's still interesting.

F.Y.I.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism

==========================

http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2012_08AUG/2012Aug
Are there "Catholic" denominations?
Before ascending into Heaven, Jesus only founded one Church and said to St. Peter that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church with Peter and his successors overseeing it.
There was one Church back in 33 A.D.; and there is one Church today.
They are not denominations as the Catholic Church has no denominations. We are the one Church that Jesus founded on St. Peter and His successors.

There are many rites within the Catholic Church (ways of worshiping), and many churches sui iuris (according to the law) — such as:
*Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
*Melkite Greek-Catholic Church
*Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
*Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
*Chaldean Catholic Church
*Coptic Catholic Church, and
*Armenian Catholic Church

Their theology is exactly the same. All the priests of those different RITES still have the authority to say the words where God changes bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.

==========================

We had a slight "change" in the Mass just last month.
After the Consecration there is a prayer said:

"Remember our brothers sisters who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection, and all who have died in your mercy;
welcome them into the light of your face,
Have mercy on us all, we pray, that with the blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, [ADDED: with St. Joseph her blessed spouse], with the blessed Apostles, and all the Saints who have...".and so on.

So SOME things can change in the rite, nothing else.

58 posted on 07/24/2016 2:30:33 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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