Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers
or
you’re are gong to be carried away and won’t have to go through the tough times.
Which message will be easier to sell?
And Tim LaHaye w/ Jerry Jenkins were right after him in the 90's. Some of the worse writing I have ever read. No depth, no character development. Thankfully I didn't have to spend a dime to read the drivel. It reminded me of L. Ron Hubbard's "Mission Earth" Series, Which was also written by a second rate SciFi writer.
Your reference is not scripture Yes God can rapture anyone at any time and I look forward to the soon rapture of all believers That has nothing to do with Catholics assigning all sorts of extra biblical things to Mary to elevate her status
The thread title could have been better stated as "The Pre-Trib Rapture?" Because the "gathering" that occurs at the Second Coming has always been part of Catholic teaching. (Whether that "being caught up" entails some notion of a bodily gathering in the clouds or merely an ecstatic (rapturous) emotional/spiritual state at seeing the Lord (e.g., "being on cloud nine" in English idiom) is debatable and, to my knowledge, either view is permissible).
So for anyone to say that "Catholics don't believe in the Rapture" would be incorrect. It's just that the notion is subsumed within the events of the Second Coming, so we don't talk about it as some separate event.
Carry on. :)
Yep caught up with the Lord on his way down (his return, the end). Note it does not say caught up and taken to heaven. Those in Christ are given new resurrected bodies, these new bodies are for earth not heaven. The only physical bodies in heaven are Jesus, Enoch and Elijah. Bodies are for earth, a new millennial rule of Jesus on earth.
Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation Jesus gathers his elect ( not before the tribulation). You can’t read the word of God and support this false rapture teaching.
Wait isn't this a typological precursor for what Catholics claim happened to the Blessed Mother? Could this b e biblical evidence that the Catholics are on the right track?
Show me where it is recorded in scripture Mary was raptured And nice way to twist scripture to your own purposes. You can have all the extra biblical beliefs you want even if they border on blasphemy But you cannot provide scriptural support for them no matter how much you twist scripture
God inspired men to speak in the Scripture. It’s not handed down word of the Lord, like, say, the koran, book of mormon or dianetics.
As my immediately prior post notes, the debate is not (should not be) whether there is or is not a "rapture," but rather whether that event is chronologically distinct from the Second Coming.
The notion of a pre-trib Rapture is near completely non-existent among the post-Apostolic Church Fathers. The only fragment that some have used as support is one version (or two very different writings that exist with the same title) by the so-called "Pseudo-Ephraim." And even with that, there are elements that are very inconsistent with the dispensational framework into which the modern Pre-Tribulationistss cast the Rapture.
A few of the early Fathers (e.g., Irenaeus) give support to the notion of an earthly Millenium. But one searches in vain for any notion of a pre-tribulation rapture within their writings.
LOL!
The rapture is the translation of all the saved sinners caught up in the air by Christ before the 7 year tribulation
False...impossible. read Matt 24 (I posted it in post # 45).
Verse 29 “Immediately after the tribulation....verse 31 will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Immediately AFTER the tribulation (not before tribulation ).
I was raised in a fundamentalist church that did not teach “rapture” per se, and until well into adulthood I had never heard the term.
We did, though, believe that at the end we would be “caught up” simply because that’s what scripture says. But we didn’t try to put too fine a point on the details surrounding it; it happens when it happens.
The people who preach rapture can get pretty detailed about it, exactly when and how. They tend to think you have to believe in it the way they teach it to be a Christian but because of the way I was raised, it isn’t my issue.
Trying to de-code Revelations and define the exact sequence is obviously very interesting and great fun... It’ll happen how it happens, when it happens, and I don’t claim to know the details. I’ve got stuff to do in the meantime. God has a way of giving us our daily marching orders, laying stuff before us each day. I’ll focus on that until he calls me home in whatever manner he chooses.
I did read Lindsey, but it was >40 years ago. He was a good writer, without or regard to facts.
We do not know the exact date of Mary's Dormition. It could have occurred at anytime. If occurred after the completion of various books it would not be recorded, or if it occurred in the presence of someone that was not a writer of a biblical book the same holds true.
There is Biblical evidence supporting it.
Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
Revelation 12:1-2 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Do non-Catholics deny that Mary was an Ark of the Covenant, seeing as Jesus is the literal personification of the Covenant?
every time the NT mentions timing associated with the rapture, the timing in ALWAYS after the tribulation! to wit:
Matt 24:29 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
2 Thessalonians 2 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him... 3 ...for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
After the tribulation...after man of sin...last trump...last day.
show ONE verse that indicates the timing is before! You must explain away the plain reading of each of these with your special theory, that was unknown until McDonald and Darby.
Paul taught what? Pls provide scripture not statements with no scripture support. Paul never taught pre-tribulation being caught up into the air to tge Lord in new resurrected bodies.
But.... talk about elevate! God did that!
All generations will call her blessed!
So scripture records Enoch and Elijah and Jesus being taken into heaven physically but forgets to mention Mary being taken into heaven physically? Please!!
You say to mom-md “show ONE verse that indicates the timing is before! You must explain away the plain reading of each of these with your special theory” ....please you do the same, show one verse that Mary was taken physically into heaven. You Jimmyray are explain in away tye plain reading of each of these scriptures with your special theory.
Wrong addressee, I never argued for Mary’s assumption, which is an unbiblical RC tradition.
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