Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
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15 DAYS before returning with The Lord to set foot on the Earth and destroy the armies arrayed against Yeshua!
(15 days from Yom Teruah to Succot, that is what the appointed times are all about; educating Yeshua’s sheep. Shadow pictures of things to come, known to the elect, hidden from the adversary’s armies)
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Do not gloat over their blindness; just be glad that you can see!
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As per our recent conversation, THIS thread illustrates much ...
“The millennial Kingdom is on Earth.”
The abode of this kingdom descends from heaven, meaning it existed there first, hence why I called it “heavenly”. Call it whatever you want, I’m fine with just calling it “New Jerusalem”, since Revelation uses that terminology, while it never calls it “the millenial kingdom”. You seem to just be nitpicking to avoid all the arguments I made from Scripture which refuted your points.
I’m not gloating, just stating the truth. They can take it or leave it.
Wrong, and plainly so as not analogous, for the charge never was that simply kneeling before something other than God constitutes worship, but that doing so together with adulation with supplication that is never given to any created being, and ascribing to such attributes and glory such as are only ascribed to God would constitute worship in Scripture. Or at least blasphemy.
Yet the closest thing to what Catholics give to Mary is the praise and devotion that is given to the wholly inspired word of God, and abundantly so, which Caths can only wish was given to Mary in Scripture, while the praise of which by Catholics pales in comparison to the adulation and devotion given directly to Mary.
“Dissemble to someone else, stooge.”
Not fit language for the religion forum. Perhaps you need to reread the religion forum rules?
Am I supposed to respect you so highly that I should bow and scrape when you declare even an error? You must think very highly of yourself. Frankly, I have no further desire to communicate with someone of such 'self esteem'. You are not communicating anyway, just pontificating and assuming yourself superior. Enjoy yourself ...
I'm not a fan of Oral Roberts in any way but to his point....where else will you find out about God if not in His Word??
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13 NASB
30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31 NASB
Is that what your idol, Rood, has taught you? That is definitely NOT what Paul communicated to the Thessalonian believers. But I see why you would latch onto that error so firmly, given the teachings of Michael Rood.
What Paul wrote is that those believers could not yet be in the tribulation of The Day of The Lord because things he had taught them would precede The Day of The Lord Tribulation had not happened, so they could not be in that Day yet:
2Thess2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
This will fall on your deaf eyes but I will state it anyway, for others reading along. Paul just conveyed that these believers should not be confused by some teaching that is not from him. He had taught them about the Rapture (as reinforced in the first letter 1Thess$:13-18). He had reassured them that some believers who had died after he taught them were not left behind, and wrote that they should comfort one another with this knowledge conveyed. (I'm paraphrasing for others, not to confuse you ES).
Something arrived that threw them back into confusion, confused about the Day of The Lord which was to come upon those not taken in the Rapture. To reinforce that they had not missed the Rapture and were thus now in The Day of The Lord, He reminded them of what will happen showing the arrival of The Day of The Lord.
They had not been taught to watch for the anti-Christ but to watch and wait for the snatching away so that they would not be going through The Day of The Lord under antichrist.
You might consider getting a refund from what ever institution of education you went to.
It is the non-Catholics that worship the Bible, silly idolaters. You folds build alters to it present it with sacrifices of flowers and candles. You can’t deny the truth I have seen with my own eyes.
Nope, nice try I know what I have seen with my own eyes both when I was a protestant and now as a Catholic. Please stop denying the plain truth. quite a few of you worship the Bible, you kneel before it, pray to it etc......
Oh noes, it’s just hyperdulia dude! LOL
See post 316, ealgeone just bragged that God is in his Bible. MHGinTN have you built a shrine or altar for your Bible like some of the other non-Catholics IO have seen with my own eyes?
Has it escaped your consciousness that your accusations are defending worship of Mary? You might want to rethink your silly accusations.
If everyone simply behaved the way the bible commands, we would not have to be ruptured or wait for a messiah. We would be living in heaven.
Don't think so. I've learned via that institution through the study of the Greek that your thread regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary was not grounded in the Greek. Still waiting on your Greek analysis of Luke 1:34.
I'll go get some popcorn while I wait.
It is the non-Catholics that worship the Bible, silly idolaters.
You folds build alters to it present it with sacrifices of flowers and candles. You can’t deny the truth I have seen with my own eyes.
Your claim but no way to confirm or deny it.
However, the catholic worship of "Mary" is well documented and has been done so on more than one occasion.
I've never seen anyone pray to the Bible or kneel before it and pray to it as the catholic does Mary.
Your attempt to conflate the two is a poor attempt at apologetics. Maybe you should go help Tim Staples and his website.
Ahaaaa you admit it. Catholics know they find God's truth in the Bible.
Yet they so readily dismiss it in favor of "tradition" and the catechism!
Thank you for admitting once and for all that you worship the Bible.
Look junior....if you're going to quote someone, get it right. You will find I've admitted nothing of what you claim.
>> I'm not a fan of Oral Roberts in any way but to his point....where else will you find out about God if not in His Word??
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13 NASB
30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31 NASB
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