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To: ealgeone
What do you mean, "redefining" prayer? As if this were some innovation? Actually, using "pray" in a way that narrowly or restrictively indicates "adoration" is itself an innovation, and not a very legitimate one to import into a discussion on practices of the Christian faithful.

Look up how "pray" was used in Shakespeare's time, and you'll see that "pray" meant "ask," and you could pray anything from anyone "A bit more victuals, I pray thee." It's only recently, in the last 300-400 years, in English (not necessarily in other languages), that "pray" has been narrowed and construed --- by some --- to something like "worship."

When Jesus said to pray in this way --- "Our Father" --- He did not say that was the only prayer allowable. We can pray to God the Father, and God the Son, and God Our Lord the Holy Spirit --- that is to say, to the Holy Trinity --- in that one sense of adoration, and using many kinds of words. Otherwise, how short would church be! In and out in two minutes!

In a broader and time-honored sense, we can express verbally our living bond of love with anybody in the Body of Christ, share our joys and sorrows with them, and petition their prayers and intercession.

I can do this with you. With my husband. With my parents, who have gone on before us. With St. Peter, with St. Michael the Archangel, with St. Joseph Jesus' foster-father, and with Mary. And my mother (1913-1994) --- Winnie, please pray for your grandsons!

Otherwise, we'd be saying we don't need them. As if we didn't need them! St. Paul says you can never say you don't need them! We have a vital connection in Christ, living, constant, viral, powerful, effective as St. James says, and far stronger than death.

All these prayers are ultimately offered to God OF COURSE ---not "just" the saints, not Mary, not Paul, not Peter, etc. as if they could do anything as "independent operators" --- because we can offer them only with and through other members of the Body of Christ. In Him we live, and move, and have our being. Without Him, we are useless, incommunicado, powerless, pointless and dead.

So as for adoration, we do that to God alone, to the Blessed Trinity. As for prayer, we do that for each other. All of us. I pray for you, you pray for me.

54 posted on 04/27/2016 6:18:10 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praying is often better than posting.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Yes...we pray FOR each other but not TO each other. That's the difference.

What do you mean, "redefining" prayer? As if this were some innovation? Actually, using "pray" in a way that narrowly or restrictively indicates "adoration" is itself an innovation, and not a very legitimate one to import into a discussion on practices of the Christian faithful.

The catholic has to redefine prayer TO Mary as not being prayer to her, but rather, veneration/adoration.

Yet the catholic invokes Mary's name for salvation, mediation, advocacy, etc. Catholic writings teach the catholic can go to Mary and get prayers answered when Christ won't answer or isn't moving fast enough for the catholic.

I know that last line will upset some, but that is what catholicism teaches.

This is how easy the line is crossed when the catholic "venerates" Mary.

Any prayer to Mary is one less prayer to God.

56 posted on 04/27/2016 6:24:46 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Look up how "pray" was used in Shakespeare's time, and you'll see that "pray" meant "ask," and you could pray anything from anyone "A bit more victuals, I pray thee." It's only recently, in the last 300-400 years, in English (not necessarily in other languages), that "pray" has been narrowed and construed --- by some --- to something like "worship."

That's pretty disingenuous...Is this what you teach new Catholics to justify prayer to Mary or Catholic Saints???

Do you also tell them that the phrase 'pray tell' or 'I pray you' mean to ask something and are quite archaic but when you pray to something it is worship??? Obviously not...

101 posted on 04/28/2016 3:23:53 AM PDT by Iscool
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