A scriptural defense of the Perpetual virginity of Mary

Verga | 4/15/16 | Verga

[Kolokotronis]

“The Bible speaks for itself, “scholar”, and it doesn't need any help from you or the heretristics except to proclaim its contents faithfully.”

Just in English, or English interpretations of Greek, or do other languages make the cut too? BTW, what are “heretristics”?

Do you know the difference between worship and veneration? If the bishops who established the canon of the NT venerated icons (hint; they did), does that mean that the canon of the NT was established by heretics or, Mohammedan like, they were simply automatons writing down what God directed? You know, I've always had a sneaking suspicion that protestantism sprang from the same heretical weed as Mohammedanism.

[Kolokotronis]

“SCRIPTURE has been in existence since the Holy Spirit lead those to write what he inspired in them. You know... Paul’s Letters, Gospels, etc.

In answer to your query, however, Scripture tells us this (and since Scripture is the inspired, inerrant word of God, God is the one who “told” me):”

You mean like Mohammed and the Koran being dictated to him by Gabriel?

[Kolokotronis]

“So we take your word on this? Nope.”

OK; that’s up to you.

[Kolokotronis]

"Elsie has a wide range of pictures with catholics kneeling before images of catholic mary."

I'll bet she could find pictures of Orthodox bowing before icons of Panagia and kissing them too. I did it myself this morning. I'll likely do it before I go to bed.

You know, protestantism's intellectual forebears, the Mohammedan inspired and encouraged iconoclasts of the 7th & 8th centuries forbade the veneration of icons, but the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical Council (787 AD) took care of that. Their proclamation is beautiful, profound, in Greek but since you don't know Greek, here it is in English:

""We define that the holy icons, whether in color, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor (τιμητικη, Προσκυνητής), but not of real worship (λατρεία), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature, ... which is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands."

[ealgeone]

I'll bet she could find pictures of Orthodox bowing before icons of Panagia and kissing them too. I did it myself this morning. I'll likely do it before I go to bed.

Then you would be in error as well.

4Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me Exodus 20:4-5 Douay-Rheims

The Councils cannot trump the Word. Well, at least they don't in Christianity.

[imardmd1]

None that I am aware of, but by the time we had determined what was in and what was out of the NT, it had been going on for about 200 years...about as long as the veneration of relics had been going on.

Good thing uyou're not giving me instructions as to how to find the supermarket, let alone the way to Heaven. It is God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit working through the prophets that wrote the Bible, and preserved infallible scripture through the Levites under the Old Covenant; and by means of the local churches, each of which was the pillar and ground of truth, whose Head is the Lord Jesus Christ. Of it, the government-backed statist church did pass it on, but not without twisting the contents here and there to fit their Alexandrian doctrinal concepts.

Not so for the Byzantine/Majority Textform, which survived the years without having to be resynthesized like your present eclectic Greek NT.

[Legatus]

their Alexandrian doctrinal concepts.

Tell me he's not talking about Antony, Alexander and Athanasius.

[Kolokotronis]

“Well, at least they don’t in Christianity.”

They trumped the iconoclastic Mohammedan form of it and the heretical Arian and Nestorian versions until the protestant revolution and being rejuvenated by Westerners angry with Rome, sadly persist in the West to this day.

Time to call it a night. I’ve enjoyed the discussion.

[imardmd1]

. . . virtually all of whom are English speaking Westerners?

I think you orgot about people like Watchman Nee, and the Waldensians, and the Italics, and the Carthinagians, and . . . oh, well.

[ealgeone]

See you around.

[MHGinTN]

Stop tossing out partial truths. In Polycarp’s letter to the Philipians he quotes from or alludes to passages from all 27 of what became our New Testament.

[Steelfish]

What we have here are drive-by internet “theologians” attempting to undermine the solid Catholic teaching of two millennia. Not only is this irrefutable Catholic teaching as the Church founded by Christ and instructed to teach ONE truth for ALL times to ALL people, it is one embraced by many leading Protestant theologians who after a lifetime of study and teaching, and serious reflection converted to Catholicism. I’d rather take their research that the out-of-content cut and paste stuff done lifted by armchairs critics of the Church who get their stuff from anti-Catholic websites sponsored by semi-literate pastors and self described “theologians.”

Take for example Rev. Richard John Neuhaus. He was America’s pre-eminent Lutheran theologian. He knew his Bible-text and history like no other Protestant in his time having taught and written extensively on the subject all his life. When Rev. Neuhaus converted to Catholicism he said, “I have long believed that the Roman Catholic Church is the fullest expression of the church of Christ through time.”

Take another case Francis J. Beckwith. He is a “born-again” evangelical, a tenured professor at Baptist-affiliated Baylor University in Waco, Tex, was the president of the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS), an association of 4,300 Protestant theologians who resigned and rejoined the Catholic Church.

Why? Because after having reviewed the materials from both sides, he changes his position and reverts to Catholicism.

Then there is Ulf Ekman, the founder of Scandinavia’s biggest Bible school. He led a a congregation of some 4000 individuals, converted to Catholicism because his theological inquiry confirmed for him the indispensability of the Catholic sacraments.

Other examples abound.

There is Catholicism, and the there is every other piece of rot out there from Joel Ostend’s “prosperity” gospel to Rev. Wright’s “God Damn America,” gospel to the lunatic followers of Rev. Moon, Rev. Jim Jones, and Rev. David Koresh. Each person arrogates to himself and herself, like metmom and other do here, and to lift isolated scriptural passages for conducting a driveby superficial analysis that contradicts the towering intellectual tradition of the Church including a string of eminent Episcopalian (Cardinal Newman) and Protestant, (yes actual scholars, historians, and theologians) who upon examining the beliefs of the Catholic Church, in good conscience, abandoned their prior false convictions, and converted to Catholicism.

[boatbums]

Stop assuming I haven’t just because I reject your conclusions. You sounded like you were not aware of what “betrothal” meant. I’m not convinced you do even after it has been explained to you.

[metmom]

Is there something about Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

that escaped your notice or attention when you read it last?

[boatbums]

Maybe you don’t know this but the Roman Catholic church makes belief in the Marian dogmas (her sinlessness, her perpetual virginity and her bodily assumption into heaven) mandatory.

I imagine we'll get the usual suspects coming from the woodwork to refute this statement.

They can try but they would be lying. Whatever the Roman Catholic church declares dogmatically to be believed MUST be accepted or else one is guilty of a mortal sin to reject it. And...we know what they believe about people dying with a "mortal" sin on their soul.

[PeterPrinciple]

Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-ten-commandments.html

1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

---

Exodus 20:4-6 didn’t make it through the final editing ............

[daniel1212]

It’s sure a good thing that Catholics tell us that they don’t worship Mary cause otherwise nobody would ever know that that sort of thing wasn’t worship.

Indeed. Where or where do we see anything even approaching this manner of adulation given to any created being in the Holy Spirit-inspired Scriptures, let alone even one word of praise to Mary in the life of the church.

As said before,

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Caths should only do (and I should do more of) what Mary and every believer in Scripture did in praying to Heaven, which was to pray directly to the Lord, not saintly secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

Instead, Caths basically say,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

[verga]

I know you didn’t read it because I provided example’s of what it meant directly from scripture. Any one that is foolish enough to think betrothed means merely engaged, has never read the Bible for any depth.

[Elsie]

[Elsie]

:) We Greeks are everywhere!

And y'all invented the Italians!